Recipe = device: How to make a recipe based on what you want to do instead?

After a few days using (and enjoying) NEEO I came across the following "issue": is it correct that a "recipe" is based on a device? 🤓

Does this mean that the user has to know which device is needed for a particular service? For me as a user it makes sense, but I don't see me installing NEEOs at my parents or in-laws if they need to know which device they have to use.

Of course you can change the name, but then your device is called "netflix" (for example) instead of mediaplayer, although you will use it for Kodi or Plex also and then your receiver is called "music", although you use it in "netflix". 

This can lead to weird situations were you have to change the volume in "spotify" in order to have your "netflix" play louder. 😣

I tried to create a custom recipe as a workaround, still when entering the custom recipe (which includes my mediaplayer) I end up in the old automatic recipe "mediaplayer" with the same controls.

Maybe I did something wrong during setup, at this point it seems to me that my NEEO is in-between an old school universal remote (with buttons for every device) and a harmony (with activities). 😱

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  • Our recipes to handle multiple devices, so the user does not have to know which devices he wants to control. Let's say you add a TV, a set-top box and an AVR, once added NEEO will ask you some questions and based on that the recipes will automatically be created. The set-top box recipe would then start all devices, manage the needed delays, switch to the right inputs on all involved devices and assign the hard buttons to the right devices. A single click would start your complete setup and you are ready to get.

    A "recipe" as we call it is the same as an activity, scenario, scene as it is known from many other controllers.

    Currently, our automatically created recipes are assigned to a specific device, and as you have correctly seen, these recipes to take the name of the device. Renaming only the recipe itself is not yet possible, but the will be part of one of the next releases.

    The manually created recipes do have some limits at the moment, for example not having and "Launched" and "Powered off" part, which is also the reason why they are not tracked in the now active section. You can work around this by just adding any other device, this will give you another recipe with all options which you may then adjust according to your needs.

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    • Patrick As always, thank you very much for this clear reply. I figured out the work around by duplicating devices, yet it is great to see NEEO acknowledging these (imho) shortcomings and solutions being introduced in the future updates.

      Like
      • Patrick
      • Patrick
      • 4 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Pierre-Alexandre Glad you figured a way around this. Yes, this is a shortcoming, we are working hard to get these resolved. If I have a workaround that works right away, I do like to give that though since that is a quick solution. 

      Like
    • Patrick 

      duplicating devices is a workaround I also experimented with - in this case adding the Apple TV twice - but then I get the exact same icon for my Netflix and Spotify recipes ...

      When can we expect some more customisation options? I read elsewhere that you gave your vote to icons such as Netflix and Spotify :)

      Like
    • Patrick 

      More weirdness, I decided to create dummy devices for all recipes I want to rename, this way I don’t have to rename my real devices and can use those in my recipes by their correct name.

      For one of those I used a dummy audio audio device and all seems to be ok.

      For another I re-added my Apple TV 3 and that one NEVER shows up in the now active section?!? 

      Like
    • Geert Van Der Linden that's probably due to a power toggle. if the remote doesn't know a state then it won't show.

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk 

      That’s good to know, can you elaborate a bit on that? I am using the power assumption mode though in principle this recipe should not be affected as I only have a stupid HDMI switch in there and leave that always on. NOTE: I am still trying to get the NEEO drivers for my DAC and HDMI switch fully correct and know there is a bug in the software which throws up strange behaviour in the related fix devices menu. It seems the next firmware update will fix this though I don’t know whether recipes not showing in the now active area will be solved too.

      However, I don’t think this is related to the power toggle as a default recipe with the exact same steps does show up in the active now area, so it seems this is somehow related to the fact the device used to create the recipe is not actually in the recipe ... also, with other recipes I have the opposite problem, they won’t leave the now active area! I like to use the hard button on the remote and it clearly shows it is leaving the recipe but the bar stays (I can make it disappear buy click on the bar itself)

      Finally, as many recipes use the same devices and I might be switching between recipes in any random order I have for now left the “when powered off” part of all my recipes completely blank and created a custom recipes to power down all devices. And I noticed this does not always work, in other words the remote refuses to send the power down commands. I am now thinking this could be because the remote thinks this recipe is already active (but not showing as such) and then switches back to it without executing all its commands ... anyway of testing this?

      Like
    • Geert Van Der Linden there was a bug regarding toggle and showing active scenes. maybe you can share a screenshot of the recipe. Also try to rewrire a device.

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk 

      sure, this is my recipe, no toggles required.

      Like
    • Geert Van Der Linden is switch an “always on” device?

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk 

      Not yet, current NEEO driver has it as a stupid device and I am using the new assumption mode. But I do leave it on and have removed all power toggle commands for switch from all recipes. Already working with NEEO to make a separate “always on” driver, but a recipe including the exact same devices and steps DOES show up in the now active area ...

      Like
    • Geert Van Der Linden The reason that it's not showing as active is because of the "switch device" not having a power state. When NEEO doesn't know the state it won't show it. Whether this requires a feature request or a bug registration is something I'll leave up to Patrick .

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk 

      If the power state of the switch is the problem - and it might be solved when a correct “always on” driver is available - then I still wonder how it can be that an identical recipe does NOT have the same problem?

      In other words, I think something else is going on here (too).

      Like
    • Geert Van Der Linden thats weird indeed. Maybe you can add a new room to NEEO and add all devices to test. This way you can test with your recipes and find why this is happening.

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk fist maybe try to go to devices -> Apple TV and chose the option to update driver an then the option rewire. 

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk 

      ok, I can easily try that, I have solved issues by resetting the wiring before.

      any ideas on the recipes NOT dissapearing from the active now area? Or an ALL DEVICES OFF macro that always runs? It seems NEEO is trying to be smart when switching between recipes and does not always execute all commands. Which I find a bit odd because the whole point of having smart devices is that they are immune from toggle issues.

      Like
    • Geert Van Der Linden if recipes stay active while they’re shutdown then I suspect that your remote might not always receive the status notifications. Could you test if there’s a difference when using the app?

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk 

      Ok, so what have we learned:

      1) if a recipe is showing controls on the remote or app, they remain visible and functional even after the recipe was powered off with another device (remote or app). I suppose this is not a bug but it is an odd UX. As the remote and app know the recipe was closed they could also hide the controls from that recipe.

      2) the recipe not showing in the active now area was due to not powering on the “dummy device”! In my case I added the Apple TV twice and renamed one device to Netflix. In the recipe I now have power on Netflix and then show Apple TV controls. If I remove power on Netflix and replace it with power on Apple TV the recipe does not show in the active now area ...

      3) When I power of an Apple TV recipe it sends a long back command to the Apple TV (which then shows a shortcut menu) despite not having ANY steps in the power off part of my recipe ...

      4) if I use a dummy audio device to create a Spotify recipe it refuses to leave the active now area, unless I close it from there. Behaviour is identical on app and remote, so hitting the power off button on the remote or the power off button in the menu on the app closes the recipe but it stays in the active now area. Only two real devices in that recipe are my DAC and Apple TV. If I readd my DAC instead of using the dummy audio device I get the same behaviour. If I readd my Apple TV for a third time I can make it work but than I don’t get an audio icon to clearly identify this is audio only recipe ...

      In other words, solved number 2 but still don’t know what is going in 3 and 4, could be bugs, but I am looking to work around oddities of workarounds, when all I want is to rename a recipe, or give it another icon, or create another recipe with the same devices ...

      BTW, anybody else in favour of removing that intermediate screen we now get every single time to explain what a recipe is?!?

       

      UPDATE: my switch is now an always on device, I deleted it, re-added it, rewired and recreated all necessary steps in all recipes. That means I have only one stupid device left and this does not influence what I am seeing. Behaviour is also the same on app and remote.

      So I assume there is a bug on recipes that won’t leave the active now area. As far as I can see this is linked to the use of dummy devices.

      There is also a bug on unexpectedly powering down devices, if I open multiple recipes related to source devices in sequence I always only see the last one in the active now area - which could be as designed, not sure - but when I close that one, NEEO powers off all source devices EXCEPT the one for which I just left the recipe ... and I have exactly zero steps in the powered off sections of all my recipes. Go figure.

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk 

      I noticed NEEO refuses to send power commands when it thinks the device is already in the correct power state. I am talking about smart devices. I thought the whole point was that you need smart devices to have reliable automation! Yet, if NEEO thinks a device is on it refuses to send a power on command. Is this also a known bug?

      EDIT: an example, NEEO thinks my smart pojector is on but is is not. I launch a recipe which includes my projector and thus a power on command. NEEO DOES NOT SEND this power on command! As this is a smart device NEEO doesn’t offer a fix devices menu either ... and sending a power on command manually also doesn’t work! The solution is to send a power off command first, which does nothing except NEEO now believes the devices is off and accepts to send the power on command next ...

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk Patrick

      Anybody care to comment on the power state bugs?

      Many people were frustrated by the original “your device is stupid and we want to deliver reliable automation” mantra. Turns out automation is far from reliable even with smart devices! I experience NEEO turning off devices when I have ZERO power off steps in my recipes. I also experience NEEO refusing to send commands when it thinks it doesn’t need to, in other words it thinks it knows better. It doesn’t. It shouldn’t try to either. That was the whole point of having smart devices.

      Actually, it would be nice to have a list of known bugs.

      Also, the problem with my recipe not showing in the active now area was related to the dummy audio device. Impossible for me to determine whether the error is in the software or the driver.

      Like
    • Geert Van Der Linden I think Patrick Ingrid and Jeff  are better in replying this.

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk 

      sure, only asked because you contributed to this topic earlier

      Like
      • Jeff
      • Head of Customer Experience
      • Jeff
      • 4 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Geert Van Der Linden Hi! Thank you for reaching out to us. Can you please send me a screenshot of the recipe that is powering off devices when you don't have these steps included?  I also need the exact make and model of these devices. Can you provide me with your NEEO hostname which can be found in the about section of the app. 

      Geert Van Der Linden said:
      I also experience NEEO refusing to send commands when it thinks it doesn’t need to, in other words it thinks it knows better. It doesn’t. It shouldn’t try to either. That was the whole point of having smart devices.

      I also need the make and model of these devices along with a screenshot of the recipe. When NEEO Skips these steps, are you previously running a recipe that has some of the same devices already running when the other recipe (the recipe that refuses to send commands) is triggered?

      Thanks!

      Like
    • Jeff 

      This behaviour is not related to a specific recipe...

      Example one

      I have three source devices, Apple TV, set-top box and BD player. All three are wired identically, first to an HDMI switch and then a projector. All three are also wired to a DAC and then two power amps. I don’t have ANY steps in the powered off section of ANY recipe.

      Action 1: run any of the three recipes, run any other of the three recipes, (optional) run the third recipe

      Behaviour: only the last recipe is ever shown in the active now area

      Action 2: leave the active recipe

      Behaviour: NEEO switches off ALL sources devices from all OTHER recipes, meaning the ones not visible in the active now area. It also leaves the active recipe as requested.

      This behaviour is identical in any sequence and combination of the three recipes, including when I leave the recipes first so I should have only one active recipe. So run recipe 1, leave recipe 1, run recipe 2, leave recipe 2 results in powering off the source device from recipe 1?!?

      Example two:

      As I have no steps in the powered off sections I have a custom recipe to power off all my devices, yet I noticed that when NEEO thinks a device is off it skips that step and DOES NOT execute the power off command!

      Example three:

      And it doesn’t even have to be a recipe at all, I added a shortcut with a power on command for one of my (smart) devices. Click the button. If NEEO thinks the device is already on it DOES NOT send the power on command, no matter how many times you click.

      How do you square that with the reliable automation philosophy of NEEO?

      Like
      • Jeff
      • Head of Customer Experience
      • Jeff
      • 4 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Geert Van Der Linden Thank you for sharing this. From what you are stating this is normal behavior. 

      Geert Van Der Linden said:
      I have three source devices, Apple TV, set-top box and BD player. All three are wired identically, first to an HDMI switch and then a projector.

       Unless you have three different Tv's, NEEO will not run three recipes that have audio and video output to the same source Tv. You can't watch Apple Tv, BD Player, and your Set-top box all at the same time. This is why only the last recipe is displayed under now active. This is normal behavior and not a bug.

      When you run your Apple Tv recipe and then run your set-top box recipe you need to include power off commands as shortcuts to power off specific devices that may or may not be on. Pressing the power button on the NEEO Remote will only power off devices that are in the last recipe you were in. 

      What specific device did you add the power on command for? Is it a device that also requires changing inputs or any other sources?

      Based on what you said (my current understanding) you are trying to do things with NEEO that are simply not possible and therefore giving you the impression that NEEO does not work. I am sure we can work together so I can help you understand.

      Thanks!

      Like
    • Jeff 

      Please make me understand, is asking NEEO to send a single power on command simply not possible (example three)?!? Is running a custom recipe with a bunch of power off commands (and nothing else) simply not possible (example two)?!?

      Please make me understand the logic of the active now area too. It seems to me that you could either have one recipe active at all times or you could allow multiple recipes to be active. With NEEO some recipes can be active at the same time and others not, why? From what you say I understand you cannot have two recipes with the same sink device active, why? If I add my projector three times will NEEO then show all three recipes? What is the logic behind that? Are there any other rules we should try to guess? What does NEEO actually do when one runs another recipe with the same sink device? Do you leave the previous recipe and execute all commands in the when powered off section?

      I don’t think I am asking for something impossible, if I run my TV recipe first and my blue ray recipe next, than I have a different situation than when I only run my blue ray recipe, namely that my set-top box is already powered on. That means faster switching. Showing both in the active now area also means I can actually see that my set-top box is powered on. That has nothing to do with the fact I cannot watch both at the same time, which incidentally, is actually not even true as you could have PiP.

      I am assuming my previous post was not clear so let’s try to get terminology sorted out:

      1) When I say leaving a recipe (that’s how NEEO calls it) I mean power off that recipe (that’s how NEEO calls it in the menu), which in my case shouldn’t actually do anything as I have zero steps in the power off section of my recipes.

      2) When I say power down a device, well, I mean exactly that.

      Now, please explain me the logic behind the following behaviour:

      1) run TV recipe

      2) run blue ray recipe

      3) leave blue ray recipe

      4) NEEO powers down my set-top box?!?

      Finally, I didn’t say NEEO doesn’t work, but if you ask me I think it doesn’t work well, or rather, it works within a limited set of assumptions that we are all trying to guess and as soon as we violate one of those assumptions NEEO behaves unexpectedly. I call that bugs, others might call it works as designed ...

      So how was it designed? Should I power down the source device when I leave a recipe? Why would I do that? What if I want to listen to a CD while watching the TV (because one person is listening and the other watching or because I want to listen to my CD until a certain program starts on the TV ...) What if I want to leave my blue ray on while quickly checking the TV (because the blue ray takes a minute to load)?

      Like
    • Jeff 

      This is the screenshot of my blue ray recipe. The TV recipe has the exact same steps but with different inputs and replacing my Oppo BD-83 by the SFR La Box. Neither power off section has any steps.

      Like
      • Jeff
      • Head of Customer Experience
      • Jeff
      • 4 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Geert Van Der Linden Did you create this recipe from scratch or is this an automated recipe? I don't see the smart delay? If you created a custom power-on recipe you also need to create a custom power off. This is why the power off does not have any commands and probably why your recipes are having issues, please confirm.

      Thanks!

      Like
    • Jeff 

      This is an automated recipe (custom recipes have several limitations, which is why adding duplicate or dummy devices is endorsed by Patrick as a NEEO workaround). I deleted the smart delays as in my experience they don't work anyway and are not needed, i.e. all recipes launch fine. The power off section doesn't have any steps because I deleted them! Powering down all devices (including a projector that needs up to 30s to heat or cool down) and immediately powering them up again for a new recipe is surely madness.

      So, I don't want to power off any devices based on leaving a recipe. I will power down my devices either be sending individual power off commands or by using a custom recipe I created to power down all my devices. The latter, my example 2, is exactly the same as what Beni has done and he is experiencing the same issues.

      No offense, but this is not about finding errors in custom recipes of users trying do impossible things. Fundamental questions:

      1) Why is NEEO not sending power on / off commands when asked to do so? Question and answer shared with Beni , NEEO should not try to be smart but simply send the power on / off commands. NOTE: it is fully understood that NEEO cannot track power state changes in assumption mode when the user uses the original remote or any other means.

      2) Why is NEEO powering down devices when NOT asked to do so (as described at length in previous posts)?

      Beni

      I use NEEO as my daily remote (and spend crazy amounts of time messing with it and commenting on planet NEEO) but my wife sticks to the reliability of my Harmony ...

      Like
      • Jeff
      • Head of Customer Experience
      • Jeff
      • 4 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Geert Van Der Linden Have you had a chance to look at my dm? I messaged you yesterday :).

      Thanks!

      Like
    • Jeff 

      Following our call I did some more testing and can confirm that all IR commands are working, all power commands are discrete commands and NEEO is not secretly using power toggle commands in the background. This behaviour is consistent with the following devices: Apple TV 3, Oppo BD83, Wyred4Sound DAC-2 DSD, all three smart devices.

      EDIT: this also happens with my EPSON TW9000W

      To replicate, add a device to a new room, unhide the recipe if needed and add two shortcuts (for the same device): power on and power off.

      Now, run the recipe. Device is on. Test both shortcuts. All appears well with the world.

      Now, power down the device using the button on the device (or use the original remote) and try to use NEEO to correct (with the shortcuts, running the recipe again). It DOESN’T work! NEEO thinks the device is on and does not send a power on command!

      So, try sending a power off command instead. NEEO sends the command (to a device that was already turned off and stays off, so we know it was not the toggle command). Try sending the power on command again. Bingo, NEEO thought the device was off so this time he sends the command and the device is powered up again.

      This behaviour makes no sense. For reliable automation you indeed need smart devices, with discrete commands. But you also need a remote that sends those discrete commands ...

      Like
      • Beni
      • Beni
      • 4 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Geert Van Der Linden according to Andy in my post about this issue this is how NEEO is designed. Dont ask me why, it doesnt make any sense for smart devices with discrete commands.

      Like
    • Beni I read your post and only saw the reply from Raphael on the (then new) assumption mode.

      I am stumped. NEEO wants reliable automation. So does everybody else. But people have stupid devices. So a universal remote such as NEEO needs an assumption mode to handle those. After many comments / complaints we got it. There are some open issues - which I hear are already solved in the next non-public firmware upgrade - but generally it works well. Now we need to convince NEEO that nobody needs an assumption mode for smart devices?!?

      Like
      • Beni
      • Beni
      • 4 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Geert Van Der Linden you can find Andys response in the following topic:

      https://planet.neeo.com/t/63pc4c?pg=1

       

      We are actually kind of tracking the power status for discrete power commands. Before the next power on is sent, a power off must sent and in the opposite.

      Like
    • Beni interesting

      Andy Raphael it seems this topic is older than I thought (and not related to the firmware upgrade that introduced the assumption mode). My limited imagination fails to come up with a good reason for (kind of) tracking power states of smart devices and using this to force an assumption mode on them - even more so as we initially didn't have an assumption mode for stupid devices, where we actually need it - can you enlighten us?

      Like
    • Patrick in all honesty and with all due respect, but this is such a shitshow. Pardon my french. The fact that "manually created recipes do have some limits at the moment" is such a massive let down, given how long Neeo has been in development and how much of an extremely super basic feature it is to be able to create full blown recipes manually. 

      I just tried your "workaround" by adding some "dummy" device and depending on what kind of device I select, I end up with Recipe names that are completely not what I need (like "Movies & Media"), BECAUSE I CAN'T EVEN FREAKING RENAME A RECIPE. 

      I am so upset having spent so much money on such a piece of non-working garbage - and yes, this is not the only issue. And that's why I am saying this. 

      Like
    • cryptochrome 

      Correct, you cannot rename recipes, but you can rename devices. So the basic idea is to (re)add a (dummy) source device, rename that and next use the automatically created recipe of that source device. I found it comes with its own set of issues (many of which described at length in this thread) but I did end up with all the recipes i wanted and they all have the correct name (if not necessarily the icon I wanted).

      Jeff Patrick Raphael

      I realise I asked many questions (in this thread alone) and I am sure you are overwhelmed with questions, and maybe you already regret giving any kind of endorsement to this “workaround”, but I am convinced many people would like the answer to some of the design choices behind NEEO, such as:

      1) What is the logic behind the active now area and what does NEEO actually do when recipes are launched with the same sink device?

      2) Why do you enforce a power assumption mode on smart devices? Only thing I can think of is that you want to avoid possible transition effects (e.g. a short blink or interruption when you reconfirm an input) but surely that must be less important than reliable automation?

      To get where I wanted I have now added both my Apple TV and my Epson projector three times! The workaround logic is as follows:

      1) Add source devices multiple times and rename them to whatever you want to call the recipes

      2) Add sink devices as many times as you have recipes using them.

      Result, I can now launch three recipes using the same sink device and they will all three show in the active now area! More importantly, this also removed the bug where NEEO would unexpectedly power down source devices (an issue nobody ever tried to answer). Switching between the active recipes does not really work, NEEO only switches the controls on the screen and doesn’t send any commands (which means no inputs are switched) ... but, when I relaunch my recipes NEEO does send the commands!

      In other words I again got closer to reliable automation nirvana but I kinda wish you hadn’t made NEEO setup so extremely simple ...

      Like
  • Pierre-Alexandre

    Funny that, I have the exact same weirdness :)

    I use an Apple TV to watch Netflix and listen to Spotify (streamed from an iOS device). Because I have it linked to a projector (which I DON’T want waste precious lamp hours when listening to Spotify) I need this to be two recipes. Various limitations with custom recipes mean you need to use recipes linked to devices. So, I renamed the Apple TV to Netflix and finetuned that recipe. Next I renamed my DAC to Spotify and finetuned that recipe.

    Now the weirdness starts:

    1) when I launch Spotify I want to show the controls of the Apple TV, but that is now now called Netflix and that is what it shows on the remote ... and when I launch Netflix I need to use the Spotify volume control

    2) my DAC is an audio device and gets a loudspeaker icon in the NEEO app but some kind of ghetto blaster icon on the remote ?!?

    Patrick

    Am I the first to notice this icon switch ;)?

    Like
    • Hi, Geert Van Der Linden. Thank you for your feedback.

      1) Do I understand correctly that you like to use your Apple TV to watch Netflix and listen to Spotify? If that's the case, I would recommend hiding the DAC recipe again and taking the following steps:

      1.  Add a second "Apple TV"
      2. Add a TV you don't own. eg. "Dummy TV"
      3. Wire the 2nd Apple TV to the DAC and the dummy TV
      4. Rename the 2nd Apple TV to "Spotify"
      5. Done! 

      (You can then delete all  Dummy TV steps from your "Spotify recipe" in "Launched" and "Power off".)  Please let me know if that helps and make sense to you. 

      2) Thanks for reporting this. You are right, there is a difference between the device icons. The dev team will check it out. 

      Like
    • Ingrid 

      Thanks, but that was a month ago, since I tried various scenarios, created new rooms, re-added devices and generally wasted many hours in a trial and error approach to see which recipes have bugs or otherwise unexpected behaviour, as is the NEEO way.

      What I have learned:

      1) you should remove the dummy audio device from your database, it was the source of many problems. You could probably use it for debugging the software and/or dummy drivers

      2) deleting all steps related to dummy devices (as you describe above) is a no-go. I already explained this in an earlier message but in essence I added a second Apple TV, renamed this to Netflix and then learned the hard, experimental and frustrating way I have to power on Netflix, NOT my Apple TV, or bugs ...

      3) I ended up with adding my Apple TV 3 times, once to have the device, once to have a recipe called Netflix and once to have a recipe called Spotify. That of course means both recipes have the same icon - I would have liked to see a difference as Netflix uses video and Spotify is an audio only recipe - but in the grand scheme of things this is a minor thing.

      4) mind-boggingly, you should choose different options in the cable salad routine depending on which steps you intend to keep in a recipe ... in short, when you don’t plan to have any steps related to a certain device, try to keep it out of the cable salad, regardless of actual wiring.

      Summarising: my Netflix and Spotify recipes work well now, both appear in the active now area and can switched on and off in all sequences.

      I’d still like an audio icon but much more important I’d like an answer to my many messages related to zwave devices ...

      Like
    • Ingrid 

      Mapping the previous / next chapter to the channel up / down buttons on the remote for an Apple TV would also be nice (another open request)

      Like
  • Geert Van Der Linden I think this is a topic you also mentioned about power handling: https://planet.neeo.com/t/k9k7dr/power-state-handling-in-recipes

    Unfortinately no solution yet. This is one pf the main reasons I still use my harmony.

    NOTE: NEEO is not the only device which can turn on/off devices, sometimes also CEC powers on/off devices, so NEEO not alwys know the correct state. 

    PLEASE let NEEO send power commands for smart devices evdrytime and not try to be smart

    Like
  • Patrick Raphael

    Geert Van Der Linden said:
    1) What is the logic behind the active now area and what does NEEO actually do when recipes are launched with the same sink device?

    2) Why do you enforce a power assumption mode on smart devices? Only thing I can think of is that you want to avoid possible transition effects (e.g. a short blink or interruption when you reconfirm an input) but surely that must be less important than reliable automation?

    I am still curious about the answer to these two questions, particularly on the second one as I have a workaround for the first I can live with. Are there any plans to change this behaviour or make it a user setting? Is there already a vote on this topic or should we create one? Two more examples of how the current behaviour leads to trouble:

    1) I had an active recipe during the last firmware upgrade. The upgrade itself went quick and smooth but afterwards NEEO forgot about the active recipe. Understandably so. But then it refused to send power off commands because it thought everything was off already ... 

    2) My projector powers down automatically if receives no signal for 30min. But NEEO refuses to bring it back to life because it thinks it is still on.

    The solution is always the same, send the opposite command first, so if NEEO thinks it’s on turn it off, then when neeo « knows « it’s off it will send the power on command. That works for me but not for my family, which means after five months NEEO is still my little hobby project, but not the family remote.

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    • Geert Van Der Linden Add a power toggle shotcut to the recipe. So you can turn the device on if it has been turned off during time. I think, it's the best possible solution. A wrong power state doesn't happen all too often.

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    • Tobias Möller if one remote is controlled by one user a wrong power state would indeed not happen very often. Multiple users, multiple remotes, kids using the buttons on the device itself, power saving modes, CEC and other triggers, different story.

      But the point is it should never be a problem, because we are talking about smart devices. For not-so-smart devices we now have a very elegant solution with the fix devices menu. But smart devices evidently don’t appear there. Adding multiple power toggles to ALL recipes is quite the opposite of an elegant solution.

      So, I created a devices room with recipes that only serve to show the controls of a single device, replicating the original remote, or at least the selection of commands I need. As stated before, that works for me, but not for every family member.

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      • Patrick
      • Patrick
      • 4 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Geert Van Der Linden You are right, for "smart devices" with discrete power on and off commands we could always send the commands, no need to do an assumption. I have recently summarised different cases for our designers and engineers, I have also added your description. We will sure look into this.

      We were also thinking about adding the power fix menu which you get for not-so-smart devices to all recipes. What do you think about that?

       

      The way NEEO handles this right now is that only a single recipe of a source device (i.e. AppleTV / PS4) per target device (i.e. TV / Beamer) can be active. Now when you switch for example from the AppleTV to the PS4, only one recipe is shown in the now active section of NEEO. This makes sense cause you can't use the two recipes at the same time since you TV can only show one input. When it comes to shutting down the recipe, NEEO remembers that both devices are still on and sends both power commands. This remembering is what is doing this assumption currently.

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  • Patrick said:
    We were also thinking about adding the power fix menu which you get for not-so-smart devices to all recipes. What do you think about that?

     This would be a short-term workaround which could help for some cases but this is not the solution. 

    E.g. what i want to have is a custom receipe which powers off all my (smart devices). For me this is a very basic use case which NEEO should handle.

    Why do i use this? If I stream spotify via my smartphone to the AVR, or stream a video to my TV, these devices will turn on (but NEEO doesnt know it). This is why I wanted to have a "Power Off everything" which than turn off the devices. 

    At the moment the only way is either to use the original remotes or start a receipe and turn it off again.

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  • Thanks Patrick , I finally understand what the logic of NEEO was and why I got such strange behaviour.

    Patrick  said:
    We were also thinking about adding the power fix menu which you get for not-so-smart devices to all recipes. What do you think about that?

    I would not do that. I think it would increase confusion. Plus I am a minimalist :)

    The fix devices menu is perfect as it is, only show it when needed and only show the not-so-smart devices in the recipe. Cannot be improved in my opinion.

    Patrick said:
    This makes sense cause you can't use the two recipes at the same time since you TV can only show one input.

    Here I don’t agree, in fact many devices support PiP. Think watching a streaming service until the football game starts. Or listening to music while watching a picture collection. I could even project two 75” images with the same projector and have one person listening to the speakers and another to headphones. Ok, I’ve never actually done the latter but it is possible.

    But more than that, I like to know which devices are on and which recipes are active. With your Logic, when I pick up the remote and see my cable recipe is active I don’t know whether the blue ray recipe was active earlier and the player is still on or not. I might also be a control freak ;) I see two solutions that are always consistent, either you always close old recipes and have but a single active recipe or you allow all recipes to be active simultanously, I strongly favour the second option. I found a workaround for this which I described in previous posts and revolves around duplicating sink devices.

    But the biggest issue is that you assume people want to turn of their devices when closing a recipe. I have not followed that logic, removed all power down steps from all recipes and it created plain weird behaviour. Example, I launch my BD recipe, next launch my cable recipe, then close the cable recipe: NEEO leaves the set-top box on because there are no power down steps but the assumption mode powers down the BD, even though that also has no power down steps in its recipe! My workaround for the active now area also took care of this issue, with a minor inconvenience I can live with.

    But, just as Beni I created a custom recipe to power down all my devices (including all their copies otherwise assumption mode would kill functionality of this recipe completely). As they are smart I expect everything will indeed power down, regardless of which recipes I opened or closed before. We have both discovered this is not the case. Behaviour is the same when using shortcuts, you can click on that power down button as long or as often as you want, unless assumption mode gives it blessing NEEO refuses to send that command.

    Surely that is not what you intended with the assumption mode. For me a user setting that disables assumption mode for smart devices would be good enough. I imagine the best solution is to complement that by reengineering the assumption so that it only uses its power state memory for the intended use and does not influence every single power command.

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  • Is it possible to create a recipe or edit the main hard power button to do the main power shutdown by say sending http-post / mqtt-topic to a main home automation server and let it deal with the total shutdown of all devices? After all the remote is overloaded with tasks and ends up cycling through recipes which in turn ends powering on devices you so wish to be off! 

    Think along those lines and everything should be simple.

    What is needed today to compete with the likes of Crestron and Savant ......etc is a remote like this to talk back to the main controller unit to carry out major tasks. You can't hook up USBs or serial devices to the BRAIN to give it total control and of course not all devices use ethernet or WiFi!

    In short only MQTT can do where everything else has failed!

    Like
      • Jeff
      • Head of Customer Experience
      • Jeff
      • 4 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Emmanuel Serebe Hello! Thank you for posting this here in Planet NEEO. I will try my best to answer your question. If you open the NEEO app > tap on settings > tap on NEEO Brain > tap on 'Forward actions'. Forward actions can be used to receive a list of all the actions triggered on the Brain on another server. Another way to add support for other devices (USB, serial, or other) is to expose them to the Brain via the SDK which can run on an automation server.

      Furthermore, we have a fully documented SDK and API. You can learn more about it by clicking on the following link:

      https://planet.neeo.com/t/18lvvs

       

      Thanks!

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