Recipe = device: How to make a recipe based on what you want to do instead?

Pierre-Alexandre Glad you figured a way around this. Yes, this is a shortcoming, we are working hard to get these resolved. If I have a workaround that works right away, I do like to give that though since that is a quick solution. 

Patrick 

duplicating devices is a workaround I also experimented with - in this case adding the Apple TV twice - but then I get the exact same icon for my Netflix and Spotify recipes ...

When can we expect some more customisation options? I read elsewhere that you gave your vote to icons such as Netflix and Spotify :)

Patrick 

More weirdness, I decided to create dummy devices for all recipes I want to rename, this way I don’t have to rename my real devices and can use those in my recipes by their correct name.

For one of those I used a dummy audio audio device and all seems to be ok.

For another I re-added my Apple TV 3 and that one NEVER shows up in the now active section?!? 

Geert Van Der Linden that's probably due to a power toggle. if the remote doesn't know a state then it won't show.

Niels de Klerk 

That’s good to know, can you elaborate a bit on that? I am using the power assumption mode though in principle this recipe should not be affected as I only have a stupid HDMI switch in there and leave that always on. NOTE: I am still trying to get the NEEO drivers for my DAC and HDMI switch fully correct and know there is a bug in the software which throws up strange behaviour in the related fix devices menu. It seems the next firmware update will fix this though I don’t know whether recipes not showing in the now active area will be solved too.

However, I don’t think this is related to the power toggle as a default recipe with the exact same steps does show up in the active now area, so it seems this is somehow related to the fact the device used to create the recipe is not actually in the recipe ... also, with other recipes I have the opposite problem, they won’t leave the now active area! I like to use the hard button on the remote and it clearly shows it is leaving the recipe but the bar stays (I can make it disappear buy click on the bar itself)

Finally, as many recipes use the same devices and I might be switching between recipes in any random order I have for now left the “when powered off” part of all my recipes completely blank and created a custom recipes to power down all devices. And I noticed this does not always work, in other words the remote refuses to send the power down commands. I am now thinking this could be because the remote thinks this recipe is already active (but not showing as such) and then switches back to it without executing all its commands ... anyway of testing this?

Geert Van Der Linden there was a bug regarding toggle and showing active scenes. maybe you can share a screenshot of the recipe. Also try to rewrire a device.

Niels de Klerk 

sure, this is my recipe, no toggles required.

Geert Van Der Linden is switch an “always on” device?

Niels de Klerk 

Not yet, current NEEO driver has it as a stupid device and I am using the new assumption mode. But I do leave it on and have removed all power toggle commands for switch from all recipes. Already working with NEEO to make a separate “always on” driver, but a recipe including the exact same devices and steps DOES show up in the now active area ...

Geert Van Der Linden The reason that it's not showing as active is because of the "switch device" not having a power state. When NEEO doesn't know the state it won't show it. Whether this requires a feature request or a bug registration is something I'll leave up to Patrick .

Niels de Klerk 

If the power state of the switch is the problem - and it might be solved when a correct “always on” driver is available - then I still wonder how it can be that an identical recipe does NOT have the same problem?

In other words, I think something else is going on here (too).

Geert Van Der Linden thats weird indeed. Maybe you can add a new room to NEEO and add all devices to test. This way you can test with your recipes and find why this is happening.

Niels de Klerk fist maybe try to go to devices -> Apple TV and chose the option to update driver an then the option rewire. 

Niels de Klerk 

ok, I can easily try that, I have solved issues by resetting the wiring before.

any ideas on the recipes NOT dissapearing from the active now area? Or an ALL DEVICES OFF macro that always runs? It seems NEEO is trying to be smart when switching between recipes and does not always execute all commands. Which I find a bit odd because the whole point of having smart devices is that they are immune from toggle issues.

Geert Van Der Linden if recipes stay active while they’re shutdown then I suspect that your remote might not always receive the status notifications. Could you test if there’s a difference when using the app?

Niels de Klerk 

Ok, so what have we learned:

1) if a recipe is showing controls on the remote or app, they remain visible and functional even after the recipe was powered off with another device (remote or app). I suppose this is not a bug but it is an odd UX. As the remote and app know the recipe was closed they could also hide the controls from that recipe.

2) the recipe not showing in the active now area was due to not powering on the “dummy device”! In my case I added the Apple TV twice and renamed one device to Netflix. In the recipe I now have power on Netflix and then show Apple TV controls. If I remove power on Netflix and replace it with power on Apple TV the recipe does not show in the active now area ...

3) When I power of an Apple TV recipe it sends a long back command to the Apple TV (which then shows a shortcut menu) despite not having ANY steps in the power off part of my recipe ...

4) if I use a dummy audio device to create a Spotify recipe it refuses to leave the active now area, unless I close it from there. Behaviour is identical on app and remote, so hitting the power off button on the remote or the power off button in the menu on the app closes the recipe but it stays in the active now area. Only two real devices in that recipe are my DAC and Apple TV. If I readd my DAC instead of using the dummy audio device I get the same behaviour. If I readd my Apple TV for a third time I can make it work but than I don’t get an audio icon to clearly identify this is audio only recipe ...

In other words, solved number 2 but still don’t know what is going in 3 and 4, could be bugs, but I am looking to work around oddities of workarounds, when all I want is to rename a recipe, or give it another icon, or create another recipe with the same devices ...

BTW, anybody else in favour of removing that intermediate screen we now get every single time to explain what a recipe is?!?

UPDATE: my switch is now an always on device, I deleted it, re-added it, rewired and recreated all necessary steps in all recipes. That means I have only one stupid device left and this does not influence what I am seeing. Behaviour is also the same on app and remote.

So I assume there is a bug on recipes that won’t leave the active now area. As far as I can see this is linked to the use of dummy devices.

There is also a bug on unexpectedly powering down devices, if I open multiple recipes related to source devices in sequence I always only see the last one in the active now area - which could be as designed, not sure - but when I close that one, NEEO powers off all source devices EXCEPT the one for which I just left the recipe ... and I have exactly zero steps in the powered off sections of all my recipes. Go figure.

Niels de Klerk 

I noticed NEEO refuses to send power commands when it thinks the device is already in the correct power state. I am talking about smart devices. I thought the whole point was that you need smart devices to have reliable automation! Yet, if NEEO thinks a device is on it refuses to send a power on command. Is this also a known bug?

EDIT: an example, NEEO thinks my smart pojector is on but is is not. I launch a recipe which includes my projector and thus a power on command. NEEO DOES NOT SEND this power on command! As this is a smart device NEEO doesn’t offer a fix devices menu either ... and sending a power on command manually also doesn’t work! The solution is to send a power off command first, which does nothing except NEEO now believes the devices is off and accepts to send the power on command next ...

Niels de Klerk Patrick

Anybody care to comment on the power state bugs?

Many people were frustrated by the original “your device is stupid and we want to deliver reliable automation” mantra. Turns out automation is far from reliable even with smart devices! I experience NEEO turning off devices when I have ZERO power off steps in my recipes. I also experience NEEO refusing to send commands when it thinks it doesn’t need to, in other words it thinks it knows better. It doesn’t. It shouldn’t try to either. That was the whole point of having smart devices.

Actually, it would be nice to have a list of known bugs.

Also, the problem with my recipe not showing in the active now area was related to the dummy audio device. Impossible for me to determine whether the error is in the software or the driver.

Geert Van Der Linden I think Patrick Ingrid and Jeff  are better in replying this.

Niels de Klerk 

sure, only asked because you contributed to this topic earlier

Geert Van Der Linden Hi! Thank you for reaching out to us. Can you please send me a screenshot of the recipe that is powering off devices when you don't have these steps included?  I also need the exact make and model of these devices. Can you provide me with your NEEO hostname which can be found in the about section of the app. 

Geert Van Der Linden said:
I also experience NEEO refusing to send commands when it thinks it doesn’t need to, in other words it thinks it knows better. It doesn’t. It shouldn’t try to either. That was the whole point of having smart devices.

I also need the make and model of these devices along with a screenshot of the recipe. When NEEO Skips these steps, are you previously running a recipe that has some of the same devices already running when the other recipe (the recipe that refuses to send commands) is triggered?

Thanks!

Jeff 

This behaviour is not related to a specific recipe...

Example one

I have three source devices, Apple TV, set-top box and BD player. All three are wired identically, first to an HDMI switch and then a projector. All three are also wired to a DAC and then two power amps. I don’t have ANY steps in the powered off section of ANY recipe.

Action 1: run any of the three recipes, run any other of the three recipes, (optional) run the third recipe

Behaviour: only the last recipe is ever shown in the active now area

Action 2: leave the active recipe

Behaviour: NEEO switches off ALL sources devices from all OTHER recipes, meaning the ones not visible in the active now area. It also leaves the active recipe as requested.

This behaviour is identical in any sequence and combination of the three recipes, including when I leave the recipes first so I should have only one active recipe. So run recipe 1, leave recipe 1, run recipe 2, leave recipe 2 results in powering off the source device from recipe 1?!?

Example two:

As I have no steps in the powered off sections I have a custom recipe to power off all my devices, yet I noticed that when NEEO thinks a device is off it skips that step and DOES NOT execute the power off command!

Example three:

And it doesn’t even have to be a recipe at all, I added a shortcut with a power on command for one of my (smart) devices. Click the button. If NEEO thinks the device is already on it DOES NOT send the power on command, no matter how many times you click.

How do you square that with the reliable automation philosophy of NEEO?

Geert Van Der Linden Thank you for sharing this. From what you are stating this is normal behavior. 

Geert Van Der Linden said:
I have three source devices, Apple TV, set-top box and BD player. All three are wired identically, first to an HDMI switch and then a projector.

 Unless you have three different Tv's, NEEO will not run three recipes that have audio and video output to the same source Tv. You can't watch Apple Tv, BD Player, and your Set-top box all at the same time. This is why only the last recipe is displayed under now active. This is normal behavior and not a bug.

When you run your Apple Tv recipe and then run your set-top box recipe you need to include power off commands as shortcuts to power off specific devices that may or may not be on. Pressing the power button on the NEEO Remote will only power off devices that are in the last recipe you were in. 

What specific device did you add the power on command for? Is it a device that also requires changing inputs or any other sources?

Based on what you said (my current understanding) you are trying to do things with NEEO that are simply not possible and therefore giving you the impression that NEEO does not work. I am sure we can work together so I can help you understand.

Thanks!

Jeff 

Please make me understand, is asking NEEO to send a single power on command simply not possible (example three)?!? Is running a custom recipe with a bunch of power off commands (and nothing else) simply not possible (example two)?!?

Please make me understand the logic of the active now area too. It seems to me that you could either have one recipe active at all times or you could allow multiple recipes to be active. With NEEO some recipes can be active at the same time and others not, why? From what you say I understand you cannot have two recipes with the same sink device active, why? If I add my projector three times will NEEO then show all three recipes? What is the logic behind that? Are there any other rules we should try to guess? What does NEEO actually do when one runs another recipe with the same sink device? Do you leave the previous recipe and execute all commands in the when powered off section?

I don’t think I am asking for something impossible, if I run my TV recipe first and my blue ray recipe next, than I have a different situation than when I only run my blue ray recipe, namely that my set-top box is already powered on. That means faster switching. Showing both in the active now area also means I can actually see that my set-top box is powered on. That has nothing to do with the fact I cannot watch both at the same time, which incidentally, is actually not even true as you could have PiP.

I am assuming my previous post was not clear so let’s try to get terminology sorted out:

1) When I say leaving a recipe (that’s how NEEO calls it) I mean power off that recipe (that’s how NEEO calls it in the menu), which in my case shouldn’t actually do anything as I have zero steps in the power off section of my recipes.

2) When I say power down a device, well, I mean exactly that.

Now, please explain me the logic behind the following behaviour:

1) run TV recipe

2) run blue ray recipe

3) leave blue ray recipe

4) NEEO powers down my set-top box?!?

Finally, I didn’t say NEEO doesn’t work, but if you ask me I think it doesn’t work well, or rather, it works within a limited set of assumptions that we are all trying to guess and as soon as we violate one of those assumptions NEEO behaves unexpectedly. I call that bugs, others might call it works as designed ...

So how was it designed? Should I power down the source device when I leave a recipe? Why would I do that? What if I want to listen to a CD while watching the TV (because one person is listening and the other watching or because I want to listen to my CD until a certain program starts on the TV ...) What if I want to leave my blue ray on while quickly checking the TV (because the blue ray takes a minute to load)?

Jeff 

This is the screenshot of my blue ray recipe. The TV recipe has the exact same steps but with different inputs and replacing my Oppo BD-83 by the SFR La Box. Neither power off section has any steps.

Geert Van Der Linden Did you create this recipe from scratch or is this an automated recipe? I don't see the smart delay? If you created a custom power-on recipe you also need to create a custom power off. This is why the power off does not have any commands and probably why your recipes are having issues, please confirm.

Thanks!

Jeff 

This is an automated recipe (custom recipes have several limitations, which is why adding duplicate or dummy devices is endorsed by Patrick as a NEEO workaround). I deleted the smart delays as in my experience they don't work anyway and are not needed, i.e. all recipes launch fine. The power off section doesn't have any steps because I deleted them! Powering down all devices (including a projector that needs up to 30s to heat or cool down) and immediately powering them up again for a new recipe is surely madness.

So, I don't want to power off any devices based on leaving a recipe. I will power down my devices either be sending individual power off commands or by using a custom recipe I created to power down all my devices. The latter, my example 2, is exactly the same as what Beni has done and he is experiencing the same issues.

No offense, but this is not about finding errors in custom recipes of users trying do impossible things. Fundamental questions:

1) Why is NEEO not sending power on / off commands when asked to do so? Question and answer shared with Beni , NEEO should not try to be smart but simply send the power on / off commands. NOTE: it is fully understood that NEEO cannot track power state changes in assumption mode when the user uses the original remote or any other means.

2) Why is NEEO powering down devices when NOT asked to do so (as described at length in previous posts)?

Beni

I use NEEO as my daily remote (and spend crazy amounts of time messing with it and commenting on planet NEEO) but my wife sticks to the reliability of my Harmony ...

Geert Van Der Linden Have you had a chance to look at my dm? I messaged you yesterday :).

Thanks!

Jeff 

Following our call I did some more testing and can confirm that all IR commands are working, all power commands are discrete commands and NEEO is not secretly using power toggle commands in the background. This behaviour is consistent with the following devices: Apple TV 3, Oppo BD83, Wyred4Sound DAC-2 DSD, all three smart devices.

EDIT: this also happens with my EPSON TW9000W

To replicate, add a device to a new room, unhide the recipe if needed and add two shortcuts (for the same device): power on and power off.

Now, run the recipe. Device is on. Test both shortcuts. All appears well with the world.

Now, power down the device using the button on the device (or use the original remote) and try to use NEEO to correct (with the shortcuts, running the recipe again). It DOESN’T work! NEEO thinks the device is on and does not send a power on command!

So, try sending a power off command instead. NEEO sends the command (to a device that was already turned off and stays off, so we know it was not the toggle command). Try sending the power on command again. Bingo, NEEO thought the device was off so this time he sends the command and the device is powered up again.

This behaviour makes no sense. For reliable automation you indeed need smart devices, with discrete commands. But you also need a remote that sends those discrete commands ...

Geert Van Der Linden according to Andy in my post about this issue this is how NEEO is designed. Dont ask me why, it doesnt make any sense for smart devices with discrete commands.

Beni I read your post and only saw the reply from Raphael on the (then new) assumption mode.

I am stumped. NEEO wants reliable automation. So does everybody else. But people have stupid devices. So a universal remote such as NEEO needs an assumption mode to handle those. After many comments / complaints we got it. There are some open issues - which I hear are already solved in the next non-public firmware upgrade - but generally it works well. Now we need to convince NEEO that nobody needs an assumption mode for smart devices?!?

Geert Van Der Linden you can find Andys response in the following topic:

https://planet.neeo.com/t/63pc4c?pg=1

• Andy@NEEO

We are actually kind of tracking the power status for discrete power commands. Before the next power on is sent, a power off must sent and in the opposite.

Beni interesting

Andy Raphael it seems this topic is older than I thought (and not related to the firmware upgrade that introduced the assumption mode). My limited imagination fails to come up with a good reason for (kind of) tracking power states of smart devices and using this to force an assumption mode on them - even more so as we initially didn't have an assumption mode for stupid devices, where we actually need it - can you enlighten us?

Patrick in all honesty and with all due respect, but this is such a shitshow. Pardon my french. The fact that "manually created recipes do have some limits at the moment" is such a massive let down, given how long Neeo has been in development and how much of an extremely super basic feature it is to be able to create full blown recipes manually. 

I just tried your "workaround" by adding some "dummy" device and depending on what kind of device I select, I end up with Recipe names that are completely not what I need (like "Movies & Media"), BECAUSE I CAN'T EVEN FREAKING RENAME A RECIPE. 

I am so upset having spent so much money on such a piece of non-working garbage - and yes, this is not the only issue. And that's why I am saying this. 

cryptochrome 

Correct, you cannot rename recipes, but you can rename devices. So the basic idea is to (re)add a (dummy) source device, rename that and next use the automatically created recipe of that source device. I found it comes with its own set of issues (many of which described at length in this thread) but I did end up with all the recipes i wanted and they all have the correct name (if not necessarily the icon I wanted).

Jeff Patrick Raphael

I realise I asked many questions (in this thread alone) and I am sure you are overwhelmed with questions, and maybe you already regret giving any kind of endorsement to this “workaround”, but I am convinced many people would like the answer to some of the design choices behind NEEO, such as:

1) What is the logic behind the active now area and what does NEEO actually do when recipes are launched with the same sink device?

2) Why do you enforce a power assumption mode on smart devices? Only thing I can think of is that you want to avoid possible transition effects (e.g. a short blink or interruption when you reconfirm an input) but surely that must be less important than reliable automation?

To get where I wanted I have now added both my Apple TV and my Epson projector three times! The workaround logic is as follows:

1) Add source devices multiple times and rename them to whatever you want to call the recipes

2) Add sink devices as many times as you have recipes using them.

Result, I can now launch three recipes using the same sink device and they will all three show in the active now area! More importantly, this also removed the bug where NEEO would unexpectedly power down source devices (an issue nobody ever tried to answer). Switching between the active recipes does not really work, NEEO only switches the controls on the screen and doesn’t send any commands (which means no inputs are switched) ... but, when I relaunch my recipes NEEO does send the commands!

In other words I again got closer to reliable automation nirvana but I kinda wish you hadn’t made NEEO setup so extremely simple ...