Shape the NEEO future
Today we have announced that NEEO is joining the Control4 family. Read the blog post here: the huge news NEEO has released today This is a huge change. We mentioned in the post:
We totally understand that you don’t want your NEEO to stop working. Some of you may be interested in doing more – providing support or development work for current NEEO customers. We are open to discussions if you have an interest. We can’t promise anything, yet we are open to all discussions. You have ideas in that regard? You want to be part of that future?
This thread is intended to gather your ideas.
We are here to listen.
Every thought is welcome!
Note:
In the sense of keeping this thread future-oriented, please do post general feedback to the news over here.
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Seen my dyson and dvdo devices still not working the way I want with neeo
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That announcement is very disappointing. It might be cool if control 4 caters to DIYers but they don’t. The disappointing thing is that I purchased the remote With the ideas of potentially the perfect solution to consistent interface as a diy person. You just sold your product off to a completely different market. The very few that are happy about it are already associated with control 4 or are making money in the deal. No one else. How can I get my $300 back? It’s probably been too long for the sale. I’ve been waiting for the right features to be implemented to be usable. Now it’s just straight up a waste of money for me. I couldn’t be more disappointed in NEEO.
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Everybody should reach out to the Tech News networks, kickstarter, bloggers, making this a PR nightmare for NEEO and Control4.
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I have no doubt that you and all the NEEO staff worked very hard to get where you are today. However without the many backers you couldn't even have started. I don't understand what so exiting about the news for us backers. Please answer two questions; 1) How on earth could you sell to probably the only company that wil not support the product you developed. 2) We are stuck with two pieces of nice hardware and software that never delivered that was promised. How are you ging to keep that promise? Your lawyers have probably told you that you can do what you did, but morally it is so very wrong!
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How to completely s h i t on your loyal customers!
So glad I managed to get my refund when I did - this is awful behaviour by NEEO.
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what I think it needs:
1. the cloud servers have to go to someone who can take care of them.
2. the domains as well as all services have to be managed by someone.
3. without the change suggested by Niels de Klerk , someone must be able to add new devices and codes.
4. if opensource is not an option, i'd suggest that someone who knows the business takes over the software. why couldn't a swiss company come to an agreement with Logitech? They have the same market, but not the beautiful hardware... here a cooperation would have become the measure of all things.-
nuro if you would buy a whole software/hardware company. would you make your buying open source? I dont think so. If they can´t get money out of it, why should they spent money on developing?
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Björn Müsing you're right, but this is the only way we can get anything out of that, right?
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nuro my only hope is to reverse engineer the Brain <-> neeo.com communication. Maybe we can do a "man in the middel" injection of the Device Database. Dont know if its worth the work..
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An open source version of our now 'legacy' NEEOs wouldn't hurt Control4 in the least. They won't be using any of our hardware, and none of us will be switching to a (minimum) $100 per year subscription model to keep using our old remotes. Their target customer are wealthy simpletons, to be blunt.
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nuro I guess Logitech is not in need to have a new remote, theirs is just fine selling itself.
Control4 in comparision was in need , and also I believe Logitech would not have made the deal as quick as C4 , due diligence reasons.
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@nuro said "the only way we can get anything out of that"
https://planet.neeo.com/r/x1wwla
What on earth makes you believe, NEEO would honestly be interested in this in any way at all after this farce?
If they were they had made aceess to database and limited updates a prerequisites for the deal - they didn't, neither did they at least create a local database, leave alone the bogus features of IR learning and Bluetooth we have been asking now for yearS. So, to me it's pretty obvious how much of which animal's excrements they give about the whole of you and me! It won't happen, neither will it become accessable as open source, as retrospective they had being deceiving us with everything said since day one. Never did we receive what we deserve (hardware software, communication, I e.g. was granted a license to mess, even this never happened) So what do you expect in the future.
The ONE and ONLY reason the pushed the update was because they already had it and they even call it out loud that they have halted their commintment to their customer base completely the moment they pushed it.
The ONE and ONLY reason they keep the servers up for another 24 months is because they possibly could get sued for malicious, intentional breaking of liability regulations if they didn't.
I wish they and Control4 will choke on that greedy farce of a plot they so apparently now had been on since the very start and now even have the guts to sell as exciting news to the the ones they deceived without even blushing with shame.
I feel sad for the ones that have burned their reputation working on this schem with honest intent, all above Andy. But I have noted down all names and whatever future brings I will not touch anything with a bargepole these involved in the fture and shout out a warning instead.
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nuro are you able and willing to contribute to open source and In what way?
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The minimum you can do is make the IR learning functional. That Neeo would at least become a dumb universal remote. Maybe provide longer support for the cloud servers (they can't be so expensive)
The best case would be to open source the software, add a way to easy upload new firmwares to the brain and the remote and in the best case, continue to sell hardware (maybe with the current software) - that the open source community can grow and have a wonderfull fully open remote. I think even Control4 can benefit from the new ideas from the community...
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Andreas The only reason they keep the cloud server running for 24 months is to be in order with the 24 months legal guarantee.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-guarantees/index_en.htm -
Robin Migalski exactly, there is no such thing as kindness, support or care in aquisitions.
the only thing is capital and assets.
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Robin Migalski Given their product doesn't work as advertised, can't we all get a refund?
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Frederik Vancoillie backers, no.
But if you purchased it recently within Europe and can prove any of the never-to-come features hand recognition, IR learning, Bluetooth) being advertised together with the announcement of a featuire freeze you may - if you dare to engage the neccessary legal means, they won't do it without fight.
If respectable was even a tiny part of their nature they would have offered at least a partial refund with the announcement. But it seems they stick to their always preferred the "out of mny cold dead hands" policy.
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Klaus Grosser Robin Migalski Daniel Sütel Frederik Vancoillie
The only reason they keep the cloud server running for 24 months is to be in order with the 24 months legal guarantee.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-guarantees/index_en.htmYes, that is sad that except the legal guarantee nothing remains.
But if you purchased it recently within Europe and can prove any of the never-to-come features hand recognition, IR learning, Bluetooth) being advertised together with the announcement of a featuire freeze you may - if you dare to engage the neccessary legal means, they won't do it without fight.
In the EU consumer guarantee is written:
When can your customer claim redress?
Be aware that you are legally bound by any public statements you make about your products, especially through advertisements or on labels.
If you are a retailer, your customers can ask for redress under the legal guarantee provided by EU law - if an item:
- doesn't match the product description
I have been excited about it all the time personally, but always personally waited in the hope that the things that were advertised and on the website sometimes put into action. Now that, obviously, features are never going to be implemented, I'm already inclined to be fooled all the time. If one had pointed out clearly that things do not work at the moment but there is an option that things are added in future, that would be different, but NEEO has aggressively advertised the NEEO Brian on the own website and on Amazon with product features that the product definitely does not meet. Therefore, I see the opportunities in principle good, if one refers to EU law and writes the concern to Control4. It does not have to be a lawsuit, it is already enough that all affected users sign on a list and then you send this list with an open letter to the CEO of Control4, because they have finally bought something like this unfinished product NEEO that was advertised with public statements and the product does not match the product description and Control4 is the legal successor of the company NEEO.
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Fonzo i like that 😁
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Andreas are you able and willing to contribute to open source and In what way?
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This is all very sad, I've recommended the remote and I was hoping that sooner or later it will become a more capable remote then my harmony and not as locked in as Control 4.
Control 4 just does not cut it for many people like my self you like to tinker and often change their set-up.
I really hope you will make the software open source so that the power of the community can make this remote what it was always supposed to be.
A beautiful remote with an open and flexibel software to integrate all you wish.
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I agree with everyone else here, make it open source and make it possible to cut the requirement to your cloud services. The community can often make amazing stuff happen.
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Software should be open sourced (Brain, Remote and Server), so that we can evolve the product to what it was supposed to be 4 years ago.
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Please make a final relese where IR-learning is enabled so that I can add new devices when the cloud services are gone.
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Hey people what are you dreaming? Open source??? Do you know what Control4 means? I can tell you.
I used to have a c4 system in my house cost around €50k. I can't do any setting changes. Such as a scheduled front post light. I need to call my dealer many times to get hold of them to very politly to ask question. They CHARGE you for everything. Most recently is to add Spotify to the c4 control app, they came here spent 2 hours, still every time I click it the screen says I need to open a ULR link for authorization but just can't get it authorized. At the end, installer told me my solos streaming receiver does not compatible with them. €500 bills after a week. I call c4 corporate. They said sorry and I have to contact my dealer. I then called other dealers around, dealers said only the dealer installed c4 has a password can control my system. They will need to charge me €1000 ish to change a equipment so they can over ride with a new code to control my c4 to to any thing. The truth is, don't think if you invest €50k for the system and labor will get you what you want. That's just a start! You then in to a hole that need to constant ask the dealer who installed your system to pay them €200/hour labor to change any setting. I ask dealer if he can do it on his computer without coming, he said yes, for €50/hour labor. WTF! Basically they control everything, user has no control at all. Worst decision i've ever made.Open source??? Ha!
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Sakis Sarris
Seems like the worst way to do home automation then...
But open-sourcing the software shouldn't hurt them really, because they won't use the brain or the cloud-services anymore and there are not much brains in the market.
Also the audience is different, I doubt that a NEEO users will move to Control4.
They bought NEEO to replace the ugly remote, so it's the hardware they're after. I think that large portions of the software won't be used in the future, so why not open-source it as a departing gift for the loyal backers and customers?
I know, hope for the best but prepare for the worst...
But if we really could go the open-source way, this would be the best thing ever and the community would achieve marvelous things, the possibilities are huge!
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Sakis Sarris Ask your dealer for a copy of composer home edition which will let you do basic programming. Also, with 2.10 there is a new feature called When-Then which will let you do a lot of stuff without composer.
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I tell you what’s going to happen: use control4 or bust:
”Control4 will support existing NEEO customers via www.neeo.com and plans to provide an upgrade path to make it easy for users to experience Control4’s broad array of smart home solutions.”
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Juri-Martin Steiner Goddamn f**ktards. I'm so mad right now!
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Juri-Martin Steiner Excuse the profanity but I’m really furious!
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@Patrick Please publish the documentation for the backend server so even if you cannot open-source it, we might be able to reverse-engineer it. All the content needs to be made available as well to make this useful (driver definitions, channel logos). The brain needs to get an option to specify the backend server then.
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Patrick the at-function in my previous post did not work :)
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What a sad news. Understandable from a startup perspective. Probably a nice exit strategy but sad for us
It has been said already by many but opensourcing it is the only way for us to keep a realy interesting products. Now this is probably not an option since control 4 has probably acquired the full IP stack so what else? At lease create a last version allowing adding directly ir codes for commands and removing any dependencies on cloud components
Please
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Give Niels de Klerk the possibility to maintain NEEO, he is very active and a wizard in my opinion. I think he is qualified to keep all the fallen NEEO'S up and running. In the end: if the remote can control my devices after 24 months and add some new devices via Homey or IR learning it will continue to operate. It will be sad there are so many possibilities left for the remote but it would be nice if someone cotinues to work on this it would be great.
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If the IR database can be maintained by the community and the firmware code is released as open source, good things can still happen
i dont understand why things are going in this direction :-( NEEO and openHAB2 were the perfect combination for my smart home, I just hope this will continue
ps. I am a developer and if the code is available why not drive it as a community project? What is the tool chain and technology used behind the scenes?
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Opensource the code or give use the ssh key for the brain ;)
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Robin Migalski Been thinking about this and just giving us the key to get into the hardware with admin access is a possible solution. And it's certainly a minimal act on their part.
But I think I've come to the conclusion that any actual attempt to keep our NEEO's working and certainly any future development is probably a dead end. There aren't enough of them out there and no prospects for more. Which makes any ongoing development somewhat useless.
Perhaps it's time for a similar project but using some sort of open sourced hardware/software as the basis for it.
I wish I was a hardware person. But I can envision something using a Raspberry PI as the base station and some sort of open sourced hardware design for the controller.
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I personally do not believe in making the code Open source. it sounds fantastic but I don't see it work out. the hardware won't be sold anymore and active users will drop from this point forward. Part of the code is written in assembler, I doubt we could find someone willing to spend much time on. We know the development pace of the NEEO team, Coders by trade and a fulltime job at NEEO. this would require a shlt load of hobbyists to even the pace.
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Niels de Klerk i share your thought...
they will never make it open source...
so we have to buy an other product like logitech harmony or so...
sadly
i loved the design of this remote
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Niels de Klerk
Would be way better to just start reverse engineering the hardware we bought, so we don't have bricks at least. That could easily be the base for a generic open source touchscreen remote project. If we just pull out all the Neeo bullshit from our devices and add something standard, like a Pi Zero, and develop a simple interface for home assistant, then that could be used and done on DIY remote projects as well.
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Bendix Sørensen i do like this idea.. for me the best way would be to made a reverse engineering wich is fully compatible to homey.. then you have this beautiful remote and a good home automation integrator :)
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nuro if someone could do this, that would be superb...
sadly i have no programming experience...
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Daniel Jordi neither do i, but i know a lot programmers. i'm in dialog with them.. may there is something they can do..
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nuro I suspect this to be illegal if performed I would wonder if c4 has not aqquired every bit of Hardware Software IP that was there. Admit I m no Expert but this all Sounds sketchy
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Daniel Sütel still better than a expensive bric after two years, right?
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Daniel Sütel It seems highly unlikely that C4 would attempt to sue Neeo users for wanting to keep their products running after C4 drops support.
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nuro dont know, optimal solution would be to file and win lawsuite against Neeo to compensate users.
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Steveeo if they fear that Information fuel competition I would move against it. Private Persons vs Big company you as a private Person run out of money for lawyers quick
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Daniel Sütel
what are you gonna sue? NEEO didn't do anything wrong. i think my remote is great, super work. i don't like the step and i am disappointed, but NEEO has achieved something with their project.
i just want to make the best of the situation, i don't understand your strategy.
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nuro what they did wrong was, that on www.neeo.com they wrote that the remote supports bluetooth and is capable of ir learning etc.
at least until yesterday it was so... (i checkt it)
so some people bought the remote thinking they get something that works with all their equipment but surprise none of that works, and in the worst case they bought it 60 days ago...
that sucks
so in my oppinion they must open up the software only because of the wrong information they gave...
but the sad reaction will be silence and in 2 years they pull the cable...
just what i learned from neeos acting the last 12 months...
greetings from switzerland
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Niels de Klerk At least it could keep it a float for a while longer if not improving it.
The part that is very low level (C and some ASM) is the remote but I think a lot of work can be done on the backend (CP6) and the mobile apps which are written in Node.js/Js.
I think open sourcing the whole thing or just some of it is worth discussing at least :) -
Daniel Jordi that's right, and that truly sucks..
i also think it's a flaw what they did with NEEO. i thought they will achive a company which is like apple or sonos, a must have for customers. everyone should love them. but the promises that were made was never fullfilled..
at the end of the day it's another step to make money out of peoples trust.but people are spending money for smartphones every 2 years, more than the money they spend to NEEO. this is not to gloss over my statement, but to show how people stand by their gadgets.
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As I see it, if manufacturing stops the platform is dead. No one is really likely to take this project on - even as a hobbist or open-source activity etc. - if there's a small pool of devices, no new sales, no repair/replacement hardware coming out.
That said, if we had the following 3 features, at least the product would be pretty usable for a time:
- No cloud/online-service requirement.
- Ability to locally add new devices (ideally, the ability to export/import too, so the community can share.
- The ability to add custom icons for Favourites and Shortcuts. If there isn't enough memory for lots of Favourite icons, then simply being able to add colourised text instead of an icon would do (I recognise most channels by the colours of their acronym text)
That would make the platform viable, for a while. But with no replacement parts or units being made, and (sooner or later) the iOS and Android ceasing active development, it's only a matter of time before the entire platform is 100% unusable.
The only option I can see is to start looking for alternatives. The Harmony remotes have similar functionality, but IMO are way behind in terms of design. 😟
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Basically exactly what I expected / forecast almost a week ago (The move to professional only). TBH I wouldn't care if they would just open source the community version - that would be totally fair - they don't have to sell the hardware anymore so it doesn't damage their professional business and if they are lucky the OS folks will build cool features that they can steal for their pro version.
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Before we can put forward any ideas here, we would first have to know how the licenses are regulated. I suppose Control4 has purchased the software completely, so it's unlikely that it will be released as OpenSource. But without this step the discussion will be unnecessary if there is no end user support from Control4 (which makes more sense in my opinion).
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I think it's brave given Swiss law is pretty clear on the subject of Civil Fraud.
Swiss law also provides for other offences which involve components of fraud, for example: • misappropriation; • unlawful use of financial assets; • maliciously causing financial loss to another; • criminal mismanagement; • exploitation of knowledge of confidential information; • bankruptcy and debt collection felonies or misdemeanours; • forgery. In the context of contracts, fraud is also sanctioned by Article 28 of the Swiss Code of Obligations (SCO). Further, fraud may be understood in a more general sense to encompass manifest abuse of a right which is prohibited by Article 2 of the Swiss Civil Code (SCivC) and can give rise, in very limited cases, to liability based on trust.
Hope Control4 put aside some money ;-)-
David Hall I think proving '• an individual, with a view to securing an unlawful gain for himself or another, wilfully induces another person into a mistaken belief by misrepresentation or concealment of the truth, or wilfully reinforces a mistaken belief; and the inducement causes that person to act to the detriment of his or another’s financial interests.' would be pretty easy - particularly if you splashed out $400 in the last couple of months. Maybe less clear for KS backers but I think in general people would not have backed the campaign if they knew there was built in obsolesce.
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Folks - stop trying to raise your hopes with open source solution. I'd be very surprised if they would be able to release it as open source - I'm sure they depend on components that have restrictive licensing that doesn't make that possible.
However - I could certainly see a hybrid approach where someone could create simplified firmware (containing all the restrictive licensed code) as a firmware and have an open source API to control it. But again, that all depends on licensing, what they have used and what the control4 deal will take.
But to simply say open source it is not a solution (in my mind) and you shouldn't get your hopes up for that..
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Tim Roberts Agreed on this. I also don’t think the community is big enough to sustain an open source development, especially because the hardware is not sold anymore. All we can hope for is a more open API, that would ideally give us access to the hardware not yet exposed in software (bluetooth). Let’s hope the device can survive beyond 2 years.
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Ok, first of all... yes, what a disappointment!
As I am afraid that all our pain and anger will not be heard - I would like to start some serious discussions on what could be possible to at least get something that is not completely wasted money.
Reading through the posts here I agree with most that software will potentially not be open sourced - so what could be alternatives then?
My first thoughts were going into the direction of the existing integration into OpenHAB (I think it was created by Tim Roberts) - as here at device search we have the ability to find locally available devices - a centrally managed DB from Neeo would not be necessary. With the ability to also control CEC and IR devices (e.g. via Broadlink Blackbeam) with OpenHAB you could potentially integrate these devices to OpenHAB and control it via the Neeo remote. - Off course this would require additional hardware (e.g. Raspberry and Broadlink) which is indeed not a nice solution (leaving the cababilities of the brain completely at the side - even for the few things it does today with the current software...).
Question for me would be if it might be possible to open a possibility to allow the brain to run OpenHAB directly and create native Bindings for brain's IR and CEC controllers - this way additional components might not be required and devices can be added as OpenHAB devices and locally added to configuration for neeo remote. (Nevertheless IR learning somehow has to be solved...)
Also even if the Neeo App will disappear, the brain's web UI (currently a hidden but working feature) will still be available for the creation of recipes and the working of the remote.
These are just some very quick ideas that came into my mind - nothing well thought through but maybe something where somebody will think about on a deeper level.
Nevertheless - I have to also agree that stopping any sales of the hardware itself will kill the whole concept sooner or later... (and the ridiculous "yippeeh: we have now Multi-Brain support - but you are not able to get a new Brain any longer" feels just like a very bad joke...)
so... let's start constructive discussions...
Dear former Neeo colleagues - please prove that you take this serious.... - until now there is no discussion at all, because it takes two sides to discuss - and you did not give any ideas or boundaries from your side so far!
BR,
Arne
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Arne Speck I like that idea, combining OpenHAB and Neeo. I already have an OpenHAB-server and would love to see the remote as device for OpenHAB. So, please, that would be very useful! I'd immediately sign up for testing... Patrick , is it possible (since you are discontinuing everything) to get ssh-access to the Brain and test there?
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Hanno Wagner Patrick wasnt tagd
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Daniel Jordi Thanks, fixed it ;)
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Hanno Wagner openhab has already a binding for the neeo brain, its working for me flawlessly and with openhab I control neeo also via alexa and siri/homekit
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Simon Saado yes, he did the binding. but we want to know wether openHAB could run on the braint itself.
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Hanno Wagner sorry misunderstood your post
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