Shape the NEEO future
Today we have announced that NEEO is joining the Control4 family. Read the blog post here: the huge news NEEO has released today This is a huge change. We mentioned in the post:
We totally understand that you don’t want your NEEO to stop working. Some of you may be interested in doing more – providing support or development work for current NEEO customers. We are open to discussions if you have an interest. We can’t promise anything, yet we are open to all discussions. You have ideas in that regard? You want to be part of that future?
This thread is intended to gather your ideas.
We are here to listen.
Every thought is welcome!
Note:
In the sense of keeping this thread future-oriented, please do post general feedback to the news over here.
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Niels wrote a great app for Homey, hopefully that will remain so we can still add devices via Homey. work on IRlearning for the remaining two years, give us something to work with! I hate to see it die after two years.
we should be able to keep using the remote as we do, adding devices and changing our recipes, even if the androidApp and iOsApp is gone.
if it can just work on a stand alone basis then its something, if this release holds up for 24 months its stable enough to run through to the end of its hardware based life
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- Remove Cloud ties.
- Keep the possibility to add/remove new devices. (custom devices)
- Make it open source (Software for remote, brain and backend)
- IR Learning mode
- Make it possible to use bluetooth, zwave etc. so we can make the stuff you've never implemented but always promised like plex etc.
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Kann man die Hardware nicht mit einer komplett neu entwickelten „externen“ Software updaten? Ich bin kein Experte, aber das wäre ne Kickstarter - Kampagne, welche ich direkt unterstützen würde!! 😉👍
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Having built various drivers I think it's necessary to open up the SDK further to allow control over the radios that are available in the Brain, in particular bluetooth and IR.
In the thread regarding NVIDIA shield CEC support 5 months ago (https://planet.neeo.com/t/m2r7ss) the following was said:We will publish an SDK example showing you how to create Bluetooth based drivers. Having this implemented, we are releasing new such drivers on a regular base - with the community invited to contribute as well, of course. Firstly, we are implementing standard Bluetooth HID devices. And this small number of drivers will allow direct control of thousands of Bluetooth devices with your NEEO.
I've learned to take these kinds of promises from NEEO with a bag of salt, but for the future of NEEO without servers to download devices from this will become a necessity.
EDIT: I hope I don't have to mention IR learning is a must have on universal remotes...
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Just out of interest, are any of you guys pushing for a refund due to false advertising?
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Geoff Anderson I don't know as a KS backer it would be that simple, if I would've bought the remote I'd ask for a refund for sure. This is plain false advertising.
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@Frederik Vancoillie Thansk for the reply
I do feel for you KS backers, but I bought my remote on the 21st of December 2018. I was in two minds about return the remote in early January but gave them the benifit of doubt and waited for the upadte.
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Think of our iOS and Android Apps: with the next iOS or Android upgrade our app also might become defunct. So this feature will also soon be gone. Maybe even before 24 months...
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Wouldn't it be rewarding to dedicate a very small team within Control4 to still take care of the loyal and supportive NEEO customers by still supporting them? That would probably not cost a fortune and might even allow to win some of the NEEO buyers as Control 4 customers. IMHO that would have been a "fair" deal for the loyal and supportive community who contributed substantially to make NEEO a success! Sad to see it going the way it looks. I always thought of Swiss companies caring more about their customers
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It is sad to see NEEO go, especially as an ex-NEEO employee, I really believed in this idea, unfortunately it never came to be as imagined.
If NEEO decides to open source the firmware (or at least the brain - CP6) that would allow for the community to take over the development and allow for support for their devices. I would be happy to contribute to it and help others do that as well.
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Please make sure that after 24 months that I'm not stuck with just a beautiful aluminium stick and that it is somehow still able to be used with everything that is supported right now, and that the community is able to continue to build their own solutions.
I hope you listen to all the feedback that is given.
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This is really sad - but was to be expected after this long time without any updates. Really a shame you have to leave the neeo hardware behind. :(
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Logitech Media Server (LMS) is an example, where open-souring the software worked with !minimal support from Logitech, to keep the product running for many more years (7+)!
Quote from Wikipedia:
In 2006, Slim Devices was acquired by Logitech for $20 million USD.[3][4] Logitech continued the development of the player until they announced in August 2012 that it would be discontinued.[1][5] The online service mysqueezebox.com, needed to use a Squeezebox without a private server, is still being maintained by Logitech. Given the cross-platform nature of the server and software client, some users have ensured the continued use of the platform by utilizing the Raspberry Pi as dedicated Squeezebox device (both client and server).
Several people used the NEEO SDK to integrate controlling LMS into NEEO. Not bad for a product which was discontinued in 2012!
Thanks to Raspberry Pi etc. even more recent hardware is possible.
Raphael Patrick Please have a look how Logitech handled the discontinuation of Logitech Media Server!
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Ziegi Logitech Media Server (LMS) is an example
I think there is a big difference. I still used several squeezeboxes myself. These worked perfectly before Logitech came up with the idea to buy Slimdevices and then drop it like a hot potato. Here on Planet NEEO it has been written again and again that the NEEO team is testing Bluetooth or IR Learning, but it never came to production and firmware until now. And now the community should develop things, which NEEO itself did not do for years with its own developed device? There are not even documented interfaces that would allow this.
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Raphael and Patrick I would even be fully happy with a non z-wave opened firmware version e.g. just do device control on HDMI-CEC/BT and IR if licenses are an issue.
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Mike Whooley said:
The Harmony remotes have similar functionality, but IMO are way behind in terms of design.Yeah, maybe, but looks aside and most of all it WORKS (even with Alexa) So, it's what I (continued to) use.
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Klaus Grosser Yeah, probably. 🙂 I'm pretty happy with the Neeo as-is, to be honest. So I'm mostly sad about its lack of future, rather than its current state.
Before the Neeo my remote was a Harmony 1100. When I bought it, I thought it was the greatest thing ever.. it looks very dated next to the Neeo; and the configuration/setup procedure (via USB, requiring a time-consuming restart) was horrible.
I'll certainly keep using the Neeo until the inevitable happens (hardware breaks / server shuts down / app stops working) and then look at them again. The Logitech Elite doesn't look bad.
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Mike Whooley comparing NEEO to Harmony by using thew 1100 is totally inappropriate.
Already the Ultimate was a different beast altogether and so is the Elite with added Hue functionality (that blows NEEOs current and hence final implementation dead out of the water), leave alone Bluetooth and IP control.
The only thing I was missing on my Harmony Hub and only reason I backed it was the perspective to control my ZigBee lights using Z-Wave in wall switches. But as that's not going to happen anymore while Senic, another KS founded startup, has delivered on that front by bridging ZigBee with Enocean.
I admit NEEO beats Logitech by sheer looks and feel, but owning all three even the haptics (the wayit feels in the hand and to operate the touch screen) is way superior to NEEO. OTA is included since long, so most changes can be done remotely and also this feels less awkward on my PC than with the NEEO app. Logitech then has maintaining and pushing their Harmony series since years and so in this regard my faith is with that system as well.
This, plus aforementioned Senic Hub with Enocean dongle makes up for my requirements perfectly and is EASY to setup. Hence my strong recommendation goes out for that combo.
Speaking of Senic, then. They also had their times of struggle and recognized it was impossible to see Covi, their second successfully funded KS project through with too many obstacles. But guess what? Altthough not obligated by KS terms they saw no - morally integeger - action than publically to cancel the project and even decided to COMPLETELY refund all of their backers. Something that NEEO called "impossible" during the campaign on indivudual requests.
Also, and in contrast to NEEO they were actually and really listening to criticism - and answering. As I went ranting about their decision to bind their initially autonomous Nuimo controller to a hub without alternative, one of their cofounders decided to give me a personal call and we had a long chat about what their and my ideas of a smart linked product was leading me to be invited to join their beta team, fully equipped with hardware on their behalf. They actually honered my initial negative feedback on their humble strive to improve. Imagine such from Raphael. It's not perfect, yet, but they are commited to their idea - and their backers, and this is the way I appreciate crowdfunding.
NEEO again was not able to ever cross the border of "nice try, but, seriously....no" with my wife, my parents, my brother and, most of all, with my co-backer and now it is clear it never will (IMHO not even or even less now with C4)
It isn't so much for failing at delivering on their promises, however. What REALLY sets me off is that with NEEO I feel abused and exploited as a bcker. They were abusing a platform instituted to help start ups to realize their dreams with mutual benefit and from the very beginning intentionally deceiving those whose money they took to make their plan become reality. Going Vegas and ISE, setting up a Cupertino office, it all makes absolute sense now. This is the worst example and experience one could have had with crowdfunding from top to bottom giving those a harder start who deserve better.
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Gilles van den Hoven said:
if licenses are an issueno, the issue is the people behind that decision - won't happen.
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Rolf Blidborg said:
Please make sure that after 24 months that I'm not stuck with just a beautiful aluminium stickI'm afraid the only one to make sure is yourself - by selling it rather sooner than later.
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How to continue it after 24months is very simple! Control 4 market the remote and sell it as a far cheaper option than whole home automation. Effectively two products, one for home automation (existing Control4 products etc) and one for the end user who doesn’t have the funds but still wants a posh remote ‘Control4 everyone’ pretty much improve the current product and carry on selling it!!
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Chris Norman would be cool way...
as i understand the buisnessmodell of control4 they wont do that...
if they would sell directly to the end-consumer, they could win me as a new user...
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Daniel Jordi Me+
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Daniel Jordi A new avenue for them. Never say never, eBay began as an auction site and you can now ‘buy it now’ on loads of products, more like a shopping site now!
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Patrick Do you know if Control4 will be continuing Neeo/Neeo Pro development & manufacture; and if so will they consider selling these directly just to existing Neeo owners. (I'd absolutely love to see them sell directly to all customers, but that's not really their business model).
I'd be far happier with all this news if I knew that the Neeo hardware wasn't just a small and slowly decreasing/dying platform. As a developer I'd be happy to contribute my time to maintaining/improving the platform if I can; but not if there's such a limited and decreasing number of users.
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Just a thought, but shouldn't it be possible to add IR codes thru a "offline" database via NEEO driver, the same way you use Kodi, OpenHAB etc? Of course it means that the IR database have to be rebuilt from scratch, but it seems possible. You could just put the driver on a Raspberry or some other device and add it to NEEO Brain.
When adding stuff from my OpenHAB, the items pops up when searching for it in the app itself, same thing with Kodi driver. It should be possible to do the same thing with IR codes to, if the SDK itself allows adding additional IR codes that is.
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Patrick Raphael when is the dicison done how to continue? 1Day before the 2years arrived?? Thanks
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Michael Rydén
SDK doesn't currently allow that. I wish it did but it doesn't. However, I'm betting there will be a path forward after some time..
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to everyone out there, Neeo is gone, dont kid yourselves. There will not be an opensource of this software, Control4 have acquired all IP.
Control4 will not sell to individuals, and the price of the Remote and Brain will only go up, not down. The firmware will be removed and replaced by Control4s software as used on there own remotes or modified to such an extent to be unused by any other system.
the 24 months period is enough time to escape any legal repercussions from users, as it gives them a large enough time period for a new purchase to offer support and services before an acceptable EOL cycle.
Basically we have 18months - 2 years to use the remote and find an alternative.
I propose this, THE ANDI ONE, an old remote that was produced years ago and never succeeded, it was before its time. But now would be a boon for the IOT market.
I think if we can all persuade the manufacturer Conspin to reproduce this in a more current version of android 7, we could do wonders with this remote.
http://conspins.com/contact/ Here is the contact details, lets flood them with requests!!
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If open source or hacking in by obtaining root access where possible, please respond my post with a list of things you are able to contribute to.
my contributions could be:
- deep knowledge of protocols and communications
- coding
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Niels de Klerk my contributions could be:
- server Maint and infrastructure services (depends on what we are talking about)
- Network (CCNP Level)
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Niels de Klerk I can bring in the following:
- coding - more in the low-level hardware area
- I've there is ever a need for a redesign: I can do electronics
- testing new functions
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Niels de Klerk
- ideas.
- testing (my house is filled with stuffs like Hue, Homey, 433mhz, Nuimo, Nuimo hub, Flic buttons, Flic hub), zwave...- I used to be a frontend web developer but I do not work with much coding today and in combination of having small kids my biggest constraint is time.
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Niels de Klerk
Just testing and be part of this proyect.
Translate into Spanish.
Keep updated databases for logos or othe need elements.
It will also needed a forum or similar place to talk about it “create a new comunity” of users.
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Niels de Klerk
I have a ton of experience with Node.js (programming in JS from client-side to backend is my day job) and I have confidence I'd be able to help out with some native parts as well. I've also contributed to other open source projects, so that's nothing new either. I also have experience running/designing back end architecture/infrastructure, especially when it comes to Node.js services.
Depending on what is open sourced (or opened up) I should be able to work on the API side on the brain (I assume that's Node.js?) as well as the SDK to interface with the API as well as any drivers that would be necessary to restore existing functionality. I'm not sure if we'll ever be able to successfully inherit the software that runs on the remote, as I'm guessing that's quite specialised. -
Niels de Klerk I am a web developer (front and backend, mostly PHP/SQL/MongoDB and Javascript/VueJS + a little NodeJS), so I could help with coding and testing :)
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Niels de Klerk coding frontend / backend systems, hosting a site + forum + binaries if needed (depending on the volume and costs it need to be funded somehow).
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Niels de Klerk I have limited time, but I can code in multiple languages and have software architecture experience. I've coded low-level to front-ends.
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Niels de Klerk Mainly testing, I'm an AV integrator and Consultant so have much gear to test with and can set-up many different test situations in my office.
I'm not a coder but I do not shy away from using terminal and modding code for small projects -
Niels de Klerk
I am a ruby on rails developer. Can do development in Ruby, Angular, Good understanding of javascript and multidevice communication.
I can help if needed any help with development.
Bhushan
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Niels de Klerk coding in any language on any platform. hardware engineering and manufacturing. reverse engineering. smarthome integration. access to mobile devices test lab. contacts to ux and design experts.
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Raphael Patrick
You had a dream and now you have a choice. You can let your dream die right here and now or you can let your dream live on.
i would like to strongly ask to put NEEO in public domain by
1) providing access to your source code, systems, and JIRA to allow the community to make NEEO even better
2) provide developer resources to make the changes required to allow a smooth transition to an open source effort and jump start this project
In two years time you will be proud of what you have accomplished and what the community has accomplished.
Thanks from me and 6000 Kickstarter supporters and all other NEEO customers.
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Paul Spee I expect their dream was to make money, and they've done just that. Unfortunately, they chose to dump their faithful Kickstarter backers, customers and business partners in order to realise that dream.
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I'm very happy with my NEEO in the state it is currently in. I'm bummed. My biggest concern right now is that I won't be able to add new devices as my system grows/evolves. Is there at least a way to create an open source remote code library? I will use this until the hardware literally dies, as long as I am able to add devices.
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Travis Ballstadt same with me...
i use the neeo for my tv, avr, irobot, xbox and ps4 it works mostly and i am happy...
my only fear is that when i buy a new tv or console, i wont be able to add it...
i wont to use the remote till the battery gets broken.
i dont even care if i have to put her in the dockingstation every night...
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Certainly willing to contribute, i don't have much usable skills like programming. But im committed
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Niels de Klerk I am pretty sure NEEO will close this channel soon. Should we move to glitter or some other channel where we can discuss future of Neeo and other options so that we all can collaborate ?
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Jay Choudhary For now i'm interested in seeing who want's and who can contribute. This actually is the best place for that. This channel won't be closed, i'ts started by NEEO so i have no doubts there.
For now I'm just waiting to see if users are willing ro contribute and let the users that are not that active here have some time to respond as well.
For those afraid to lose contact at a certain point just follow me on twitter or youtube. I often share crazy stuff there.
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Niels de Klerk I have a couple of years programming experience using a Tool called Radcase. But also I m able to learn as I go.
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Niels de Klerk i am a software engineer and could contribute as well
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Niels de Klerk I'm keen to understand what would be being open-sourced. The dream was the mix of good hardware with software, and regardless of the reality of what we got, the hardware will fail over time and will be tough to keep aligned with new software I should imagine.
So I don't think I'd be interested in supporting an open source project dedicated to hardware with a limited lifetime. If the open source project was based on a great software to run on other hardware, say a repurposed iOS or Android device in kiosk mode, then I'd be more interested.
To replace the other hardware elements there'd have to a be a useful solution too, IR blaster, RS232, WiFi, etc., which elements of say a Homey could support unless you could to fork out for a Wyrestorm Enado for instance.
The thing is, there are already open source solutions out there for all the software (open hab, home assitant etc.), or other DIY -type home automation controllers, like Homey, Hubitat etc. It's just NEEO gave promise to a good combo of the lot, and I can't see how that's going to be possible to replicate with an open source project unless it mergers all of the disconnected ones.
So, short answer on the willingness to contribute is it would depend on what it is to and whether it would be worth the time. There's no way Control4 will allow pieces of NEEO to be used outside of their control - pardon the pun.
I'm a solutions architect and whilst I don't actively develop for work, I still like to keep my eye-in; I have developed and architected solutions with Java, Python, VB and Lua, but now due to time I only spend anytime on develpoing JavaScript-based (React/Node) stuff. I can help with any cloud infrastructure design/build, primarily AWS. Happy to provide advice & guidance on anything design/architural that is useful, test anything I'm able to (have lots of devices/equipment, building up again in my new house), and have used Fibaro HC2 (~10 years), SmartThings/Hubitat (<1 year), and Homey - just started playing with it again since originally getting it on Kickstarter.
Sorry, that turned out to be longer than expected.
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Damian Armitage I understand what you’re saying. Let’s see what’s possible and who is willing to contribute. Well go from there..... or not :-)
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Niels de Klerk
I’m a little late to the reply party but I’m a software dev and I’m in.
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Niels de Klerk count me in bud. The SDK was always lacking and could be so much better. I mentioned a lot of ideas on the GitHub repo and most were just ignored. No I know why. Definitely all in on this.
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Of course. But do count me in. I can do basic programming and will help and committed to make this a success.
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Provide the cloud software as a desktop application for users to manage and provide updates to their devices. If there was a reasonable cost to this rework of the software, I would think some people would be ok with that to allow use of their investments in Neeo. You could even remove the multi-tenancy if you want. Users that want to play with the code can do so and push updates. Others that may want to just update IR database can do so as well. I'm sure the community will help and provide some tutorials around some of the basics so that the users that can't code can still implement some features to keep it going. The desktop app should also be able to do all the functions of the mobile app for those buying a unit used can still manage and set up the Neeo. As I assume the app will get removed from the app stores. Even if you don't have a GUI front end to the software, make it a github repository and let the community and users develop it and support each other.