Shape the NEEO future

Today we have announced that NEEO is joining the Control4 family. Read the blog post here: the huge news NEEO has released today This is a huge change. We mentioned in the post:

 

We totally understand that you don’t want your NEEO to stop working. Some of you may be interested in doing more – providing support or development work for current NEEO customers. We are open to discussions if you have an interest. We can’t promise anything, yet we are open to all discussions. You have ideas in that regard? You want to be part of that future?

 

This thread is intended to gather your ideas.

We are here to listen.

Every thought is welcome!

 

Note:
In the sense of keeping this thread future-oriented, please do post general feedback to the news over here.

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  • Would love to help out as well, if possible. Limited commercial experience with Node.js, plenty in Javascript, Typescript, C#, C++, Objective-C, Java etc.; on various platforms (Windows, macOS, iOS, Palm - yes, I'm old!).

    Have experience on a universal remote control project, though it used a very different model & protocol. 

    Happy to contribute if I can, but the lack of any new hardware means this may be a dying project even before it starts. 

    Like 1
  • Seems like we have enough support and knowledge in here to almost produce our own product (there’s a thought)....somehow we have to keep it going, 2 years isn’t long enough.

    Like 3
  • Very keen to assist in any way to keep this alive. My background is solution architecture and now product management.

    Like 1
  • Patrick ok, after having let off quite some steam and thinking forth and back I think there is only one and only way out of this real bad situation. Still, it is not the most appreciated and preferrend solution as it will still leave us with a quarter baked product without support. Also, it in fact DOES require some work from your end but confirming commitment to at least be willing to achieve this last milestone as a compromise was a sign of decency and good will from your end. Here is my constructive advise:

    For god's sake add  IR learning on the local remote/brain. This was not only a promised feature but has been asked so long and I can't imagine you haven't been already at least looking into that.

    As a second recommendation I would suggest allowing the database to be hosted on another server. We, the community could simply rent some webspace based on subscrition or whgat have you (I may even look into our company hosting it). This doesn't require open the source code or transferring the systm to non-cloud based. Just provide us with the means to host the database

    These 2 measures do not cost a fortune and will at least let us keep functionality in it's current state and, I may stress again, without hanbd recognition, Bluettooth. etcetera this is still far less than we were trapped with into backing the product and creating your future, not ours. So I think this was a fair offer by all means, the ball is in your court to show your true commintment and moral attitude.

    Like 6
      • Dillon Moulder
      • Product Owner
      • Dillon_Moulder
      • 1 yr ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Klaus Grosser Sound advice and precisely the type of thing NEEO should do for their backers and customers. However, I’m not confident in anything like this happening when they can’t even deliver an updated set of channel icons for the dark UI in a timely manner! There is a total absence of commitment to end users, which is unforgivable in this most trying situation.

      Like 3
  • I am an original Canadian backer with a Black Cat edition, and I have been following the forum discussion since its creation. I am a novice user but actively involved in creating my own home automation. Through the help of this and other forums (i.e., openHAB), as well as the kind support of experts, I have taught myself enough to have lights, blinds, AV equipment etc. working between my NEEO remote and my openHAB2 software which runs on my Raspberry Pi3. I give this background as it relates to my questions written at the end of my post.

     

    I do not believe that there will be any further support at all from the remaining staff at NEEO, but I am too inexperienced to know if moving forward we will lose anything from NEEO that will impact my use (i.e., access to servers, ability to modify software, etc.). I am more than willing to begin committing time to learning more about SDK and API, driver creation, IP control, etc., but would be less motivated if these endeavors will after 2 years prove pointless.

     

    Therefore I would really appreciate having a few active member experts share answers to the question: What is the worst case/realistic scenario for what I can expect to see happen to the functionality of my NEEO system in the next 2 years, and also beyond the announced EOL? As a follow-up, is there anything that NEEO can do in the future to stop some of the technical work being offered by members from happening?

    Thank you,

    Tom

    Like 2
    • Emmanuel Serebe I am not sure if your post was in response to my recent questions. I remember reading the quote you provided a long time ago when I started reading this topic.

      I was hoping someone with expertise in the field could provide a realistic outlook for someone like myself who is not as familiar with the technical aspects. Many have put forward great ideas, and have offered their involvement in future development, but I am just not optimistic as I was years ago.

      It is for that reason that I would like to know what I can expect of my system if nothing now changes, or if NEEO decides to stop/remove services that, again, I do not currently have the expertise to anticipate. If anything, I thought the answers might help others to understand where their(or my) technical support efforts should be directed.

      Tom

      Like
    • Tom Mandel Good Tom, It's was indeed my intent to draw attention to what you posted earlier. I  often write posts and they tend to be overlooked but this was not. I even thought about adding something but didn't want to be quoted. Do you notice that not much is being posted by the NEEO team anymore?

      This forum was designed to confuse people and have their beautiful posts stay buried deep down not be remembered! (I mentioned this elsewhere before). It's indeed not easy to refer someone to earlier posts

      Here is an example :  Chris Shepherd "count me in bud. The SDK was always lacking and could be so much better. I mentioned a lot of ideas on the GitHub repo and most were just ignored. No I know why. Definitely all in on this."  (He is also a smart guy and here is his work : https://github.com/NEEOInc/neeo-sdk/issues/74 ) On running up to the "announcement" he was working on something special but if you dig deep down, it seems he was being sidelined and/or they didn't want him to know more than what he already did!

      I think these guys are picking our brains what leads me to think that some of the greatest guys like @Neils de klerk will be picked out for job offers! I may be wrong on this but .................😖

      Am often careful what I post in forums because it sometimes comes back to bite you!

      Now if you look at my post on this thread (page cursor on the bottom right corner will quickly take you there) one is led to think am on NEEO team's side.................................. the devil is within the details.

      I hope I didn't offend anyone and I wish this forum will stay open for so many years to come.

       

      Eman.

      Like
  • Tom Mandel said:
    What is the worst case/realistic scenario for what I can expect to see happen to the functionality of my NEEO system in the next 2 years, and also beyond the announced EOL?

     Ok, here is my take.

    As you can easily notice by the recent "activity" by NEEO which even beats the lack of communication they blessed us with during and after the campaign and even more so they are all no longer working for NEEO but Control4 inst@Jeff ead with Andy and being the last men standing here to fight the most hottest bushfires and as a stooge (sorry Andy and Jeff, not insulting you personally) to "prove" this here is not dead already:

    Basically, in the forthcoming 23 months you can use your NEEO as it is and even add devices that are already officially supported. Andy may add drivers and apply easy fixes - but that's all to be expected, no new devices, no firmware updates and only very limited support reaction. If the generous heads behind this fiasco decide to pull the plug here or decide to void the paychecks of the last 2 members, even this might go.

    AFTER that time, your NEEO will keep working as it is - as long as it keeps working. The moment anything goes wrong, even if it is just a factory reset that is required becaus a firmware glitch (and who has not yet experienced this) your remote will be pretty much useless unless used as a visual design object. Leave alone you can migrate the remote to your new TV set, even if it at that time still would support basic control over IR. Despite being botched all so often @Raphael didn't  stop to repeat his credo that a cloud based service is far superior than a local database with IR learning etc. As it turns out, this is true - for him as he will be out of any obligation in 2 years and had a good selling point for C4.

    There is an oh so slight chance (Nil IMHO) that the new responsibles at C4 have enough integer ethics and either continue to host this dustbin of a data base (again do NOT expect more recent models being added) or even give us access to the base and info to maintain this for ourselves. Still then, if we have a percentage of 5% capable coders in the community and another 5% of it having free ressources to collaborate on this task I wouldn't have high hopes that our devices will be effectively of much use in lesser time that our patience had been stretched to actually receive it.

    Like
      • Dillon Moulder
      • Product Owner
      • Dillon_Moulder
      • 1 yr ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Klaus Grosser I think the lack of communication from senior NEEO staff post-acquisition is appalling. The lack of engagement from Control4 representatives also shows a complete lack of care and consideration. If both companies can wilfully fail to support affected customers in the immediate fallout period, why would anybody in their right mind think they’d be dependable for the next 24 months? Neither company seems to have customer service and customer success skills.

      Like 3
    • Klaus Grosser Thank you for taking the time to share your outlook and predictions. If and when factory resets are required, is it a problem because there needs to be an employee on the NEEO side, or because there needs to be access to a NEEO server that may no longer be available?

      Thank you,

      Tom

      Like 1
    • Dillon Moulder I feel, once more, we share the same perception of the situation, actually. Still, i was trying to give a humble estmate to Tom Mandel when it comes to a realistic projection - which is not more than that this "best device for the intended purpose" as Raphael will insist it to be regardless what we think  will do it's job to it's current extent as long as it does not fail. But that's basically it. Also meaning, I do not think we can expect anything coming from the relicts of what we decided to support nor the new owners, really. And this also means any kind of support that would enable the community to extent usabilty considerably over the next 23 months. If my post has evoked any other sentiments  I apologize.

      Like 1
    • Tom Mandel after a reset you will have to run through configuration, which will only be possible as long as the servers are online - and we have been instructed from Raphael this will cease after the "grace" period of 2 years after the "biggest announcement ever" (which it undeniably was, even if not the slightest in a positive way)

      Like
  • I would be quite sad having to trash the brain and remote when the service dies. Best move is to open source both the hardware and software. Over time people like myself will reverse engineer it anyway, you‘ll save us some time. You could drop a USB stick at Efem‘s ;)

    Like
  • It’s clear that both animo and knowledge are here to take the NEEO Remote to its next phase. I’m hoping that C4 will help by opening the hardware and or make the code open source. I’m hoping that it will be a great success. I however lost faith.

    The misplaced happy tone in the blogpost that informs the end of the product and the silence after that, (why open a future post while not interacting with it), feels like a middle finger to those that believed in this product. This has made me decide to focus on other projects. I’m sure to share some of them on my Twitter when it’s time. As long as I’ll use the NEEO at home I’ll keep supporting the homey integration. All other drivers won’t get any love.

    Like 4
    • Niels de Klerk Hey buddy, can you please give an insight to why guys at Homey have not found the need to add Ether control so one can add devices controlled by CEC as these from Pulse Eight as that would avoid to have to connect to some database for IR code download?

      Otherwise I had a look at Homey briefly and almost went for it just because of your driver for it but that's the only thing (luck of Ether control) which put me off!

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk Unfortunately I share your shift in optimism and faith in NEEO. I am currently using NEEO and openHAB2 for my home automation, and am waiting for Athom to bring Homey to North America - I am in Canada. Are you currently using the NEEO remotes/brains exclusively to interact with your home automation for day to day use? What were you using prior to joining this kickstarter 'journey'? If NEEO is no longer a future option, do you see any other options on the horizon? Two years passes quickly, but a great deal can change during that time as well with respect to new tech. I appreciate any insights you can provide. 

      Regards,

      Tom

      Like
    • Emmanuel Serebe what do yo mean with ether control. Homey is WiFi connected and supports Ethernet. (Has WiFi) build in.

      Like
    • Tom Mandel I’m using NEEO every day. My home automation is mostly automated so not to many interactions. Mostly changing light scenes, checking my 3D printer’s parameters. 

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk Ok, you may put it in that context but if you don't have HDMI there is not much AV gear support. I don't know many devices which are controlled over Wi-Fi. Linking it to Home Automation , maybe? I guess I will have to check to see if someone has done Node-RED about it. I like all my systems linked up with little or no IR involved. I read this review : https://www.vesternet.com/blog/athom-homey-review-one-home-automation-controller-to-rule-them-all/ and they had similar assumptions.

      Like
    • Emmanuel Serebe I have no clue what you mean.

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk Sure! it's complicated. Otherwise this is what I picked up in that review : 

      "We were also surprised to see that Homey doesn't have a wired Ethernet connection either, we're not sure that we'd be comfortable having our central Home Automation controller at the mercy of a Wi-Fi connection.  That said, Wi-Fi does allow the device to be sited pretty much anywhere in your house (assuming it's within Wi-Fi range) and Homey is probably the only Smart Home controller out there that we'd be happy to have sat in plain view on a shelf or sideboard in the main living area and not tucked away in a cupboard."

       I don't really know how to explain it to you better but in the grand scheme of things I think Homey was designed to be deployed on small scale in that you can only control AV gear locally with infrared with no future expansion to high end devices and or including those which are controlled with HDMI-cec. I think am more addicted to traditional systems like HomeSeer and Jeedom . Hey!, but that's taste. And the systems are total home control autonomously (I guess that's what's missing in Homey) where by everything is interlinked logically.

      Like
    • Emmanuel Serebe now it’s clear. I wouldn’t worry about that. All it’s connectivity is wireless. Bluetooth, zigbee, zwave, iR, 433, 868. Most if not all smart devices are WiFi based to. I wouldn’t have minded a Base-T connection either but never had issues with WiFi.

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk ,WOW and there's more! Check this out : https://apps.athom.com/. ===> https://github.com/harriedegroot/nl.hdg.mqtt/tree/5d5a5b8c980182d35fc51deae68c13fde3b70b71

      Need we say more?

      Like
  • Patrick Raphael so what's on now? i tought you guys would like to share the future of NEEO?
    but there's no response since your "lovley" post.. is there anything we can do or is it just about to die?

    Like
  • Hi all. I'm not sure if this is of interest to anyone, but I had a a brief discussion with the developer of this DIY remote, Marton. 

    https://www.martonborzak.com/project/touch-remote

    I see huge potential as a substitute remote in the future due to its high quality. While not exactly the same as a Neeo, and still quite expensive ($300usd) unassembled , I have asked him to consider producing DIY kits for others to purchase and start developing their own software for. Hopefully we can start to get prices down when purchasing more parts. Or preferably, everyone can get on board with his software and develop resources for other automation systems to be able to include this remote. 

    But first I would like to gauge this communities feedback on this option before we go any further. As you are all the developers of Neeo remote and looking for an alternative. Also please do not flood him with personal messages yet. We will start a new blog and/or community page for everyone to start enquiring in the near future. 

    Like 2
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Adrian Van Der Heijden  At first glance, I see in the device at all no advantage over a conventional cheap android smartphone. The interface to control devices is on an Android device with the appropriate apps freely customizable and you can also control all devices that are accessible via a network. With an extension like a Logitech Hub, you can also control devices via Bluetooth or IR.
      The only advantage of a remote over a smartphone or tablet is that it has keys with which you can perform actions such as a cursor movement, volume, start, stop by pressing a button. The device mentioned by you has no buttons at all, so far I can also use a smartphone or tablet, or am I wrong?  Where do you see any advantage?

      Like 1
      • Jan Pete
      • Techie
      • Jan_Pete
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Adrian Van Der Heijden  OMG thank you. This would be amazing. The hardware looks decent and the UIs looks already much better than those from neeo.

      Would be great if there was a chance to focus on this one.

      The future of neeo would be without neeo which would be much apprechiated by me

      Like
      • Jan Pete
      • Techie
      • Jan_Pete
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Adrian Van Der Heijden count me in, I want this!

      Like
      • Jan Pete
      • Techie
      • Jan_Pete
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Fonzo the advantage is that there is one dedicated device for controlling things, ready to use. Always standby and waiting.

      I do not want to control stuff by my phone or tablet.

      Your arguments are also valid against the neeo remote or any other universal remote, so whats the point?

      Like
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Jan Pete  Your arguments are also valid against the neeo remote or any other universal remote, so whats the point?

      No, the NEEO has at least a few keys, that's the only reason for me why I've ever bought the device. The only difference between a universal remote with a touch display and just a touch display are the buttons. If you do not want to use any buttons then you do not need a universal remote with buttons, then you can just use any device with an app that has no buttons in combination with a cheap IR or IR/Bluetooth hub or IR/RF/Bluetooth hub.

      Like
      • Jan Pete
      • Techie
      • Jan_Pete
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Fonzo true. If the creator of the remote is interested to push this, we could add buttons. From hardware perspective this is  not much, just some gpio pin mapping....

      Like
    • Adrian Van Der Heijden looks remarkably like the Neeo 🤔

      Like
    • Fonzo not exactly, I'd say - the diffrence of a remote is that it is that - a dedicated controller for what ever you want to control in your home, while your usual Android device, while potentially running different remote control apps typically would have a different primary use (e.g. phone, or tablet used for browsing).

      In order to make this a valid remote, you need either a (web)app that can bridge between different systems or switch between different apps. Neither is appealing as a dedicated deice that sits there and is ready for it's intended use anytime you want it. Because, and that's another draw back of the typical Android device (A.K.A. smartphone) may or may not be around the dinner table/ couch, when you need it and also not available for everyone (e.g. guests)

      Secondly, at least  for me, a good remote is not just a single device but a system, so it consists of bespoke dedicated remote, a gateway, plus the options to add different controllers - which then would include the use of apps/widgets on your Android/iOS devices.

      Touch remote however as appealing as it looks, so compliments to the creator clearly is a monolithic "host in remote" rather than a system. And, herein also lie other shortcomings:

      It runs on a Raspi OPI Zero W - which btw. is good as you could easily add hardbuttons over a GPI based matrix or an UART GPI extender. But, while this may be the most power efficient Raspi it won't give you the life time you'd expect from a remote off the 2000mAh battery pictured (hardly a day).

      It is build around the personal requirements of the inventor ("fully taylored around my needs") and noone will blame him for that. Still, while Spotify is fine - I personally am a Tidal subscriber, and there's Deezer, Amazon Music and more - But that's just music and neither streaming service allows for mix and match with a local library. To implement a variety of multiroom sytems and streaming services LMS or Roon was a preferrable implementaiotn rahter than native support of either services or hardware.

      All in all there would be a lot if not too muich to do to make this workable for everyone and still then the current hardware was not the best choice for a autonomous handheld remote. This once more emphasizes the pity that NEEO has left the building as it at least was advertised with all the boxes ticked - even if we know know that was just pure marketing from the get go and never intended to be fulfilled.

      Like
    • Adrian Van Der Heijden 

      I also know Marton, and I talk to him daily about his project. It’s so much better than this Neeo bs that I regret spending a penny on.

      Can’t wait to get one of his remotes.

      Actually I was thinking about just disassembling the NEEO remote and putting something else in there. Then I can finally get rid of the god awful “brain” that I never needed in the first place. 

      Like 2
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Klaus Grosser  the diffrence of a remote is that it is that - a dedicated controller for what ever you want to control in your home

      That's right, but personally, I use an iPod touch whose purpose is neither to play mp3 nor to make phone calls or browse the internet, the sole purpose is to control all the devices in the house via one remote interface. The only purpose is that there is always a remote interface open and available all the time with which you can check the state of every device in the house and control every device in the smart home. The only disadvantage is the device has no buttons, and that's the only reason for universal remotes because there are people who like to feel the buttons instead of looking at a display.

      In order to make this a valid remote, you need either a (web)app that can bridge between different systems or switch between different apps.

      There are enough apps that can control everything, personally, I use myself, for example, NEO and IPSView to visualize and switch all devices under one remote interface. so I never have to switch to another app.

      a good remote is not just a single device but a system, so it consists of bespoke dedicated remote, a gateway, plus the options to add different controllers - which then would include the use of apps/widgets on your Android/iOS devices.

      There are plenty of systems in the market that cover just that, with the only exception that most do not have input through hardware buttons, but instead, are controlled via an app. I use an AIO gateway and a Symbox Neo to control all available systems with just one app. Other gateways, such as an AIO gateway or a CCU, in addition to NEEO are anyway in Europe indispensable if one uses just the market leader in Europe in the field of home automation because Homematic is not supported by NEEO directly one way or another, instead only Zwave.

      It is build around the personal requirements of the inventor

      That is exactly the reason why ultimately you can only create a remote interface by your own according to your personal needs with appropriate programs. Everyone has different preferences about how a remote interface should look like, what color it should have, what the design of the controls should look like, and how the user interface is designed. That's why it only helps to create the interface by your own needs or if you do not want to spend the time to have this done by an integrator.

      All in all, there would be a lot if not too much to do to make this workable for everyone and still then the current hardware was not the best choice for an autonomous handheld remote.

      The systems with which everyone can build their own remote surface are available, at Homematic, the market leader in Europe, etc. NEO is delivered with a new CCU3. What is missing is a device that allows creating a customizable interface and control existing systems with a combination of a touchscreen and hardware keys. In the meantime, I doubt that this will ever be possible with NEEO, since the software would have to be opened to make any progress on the remote interface. The alternative is to find a project or to assemble items together to build yourself a device that has a touch display and hardware buttons. So everyone, no matter what home automation system you are currently using, could use the appropriate custom interface on the touch display and use the hardware keys of the remote. The only requirement would be that everyone owning such a device could install one of the universal apps under andoid. The easier solution is that everyone can set up an HTML page as an index page which controls its own existing home automation system and you are capable to react to keystrokes of the device for example with javascript or PHP.

      Like 1
      • Jamie Poitra
      • Developer
      • Jamie_Poitra
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Adrian Van Der Heijden That thing looks shockingly like a Black Cat NEEO. Though I guess there are only so many ways to do a remote proportioned black rectangle with a screen.

      It looks quite promising, but I see a few problems.

      The biggest one immediately apparent is a lack of hardware buttons. Otherwise I'd be happy with plethora of remote apps for iPhone/Android. I could just buy an iPod touch and be done with it. But hardware buttons are necessary. The NEEO basically has the bare minimum of what a remote should have and it works well.

      It's also not clear that this thing has any sort of IR abilities. And that as well as some sort of central base station that handles the IR and other commands is important for my setup and I imagine many others. Almost all of my AV hardware for instance is hidden away and without the NEEO base station I could NOT actually get to any of it from the remote.

      Having a central hub also enables all the other niceties I've gotten used to like integration with HomeKit and such as well.

      All of that said, it's intriguing as heck. I like that it's based on Rapberry PI and the hardware appears to be mostly off the shelf stuff you could reasonably expect to be able to acquire for some time in future meaning the platform would have some built in life span.

      If he were to open source the hardware specs and the software there's a lot of potential here especially if the hardware were tweaked to add that bare minimum of hardware buttons I mentioned earlier.

      If you didn't mind the remote being a bit thicker you could even up the battery size a bit and deal with the battery issues it likely has.

      Like 1
    • Jamie Poitra I agree, he says he designed it entirely but it’s almost exactly a Neeo. Still looks promising I’d say. If it’s that similar wouldn’t be that difficult to use the shell of the Neeo itself surely?

      Like 1
      • Jan Pete
      • Techie
      • Jan_Pete
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Klaus Grosser nobody says this is an enduser product, but this could be a fine starting point to create something own...

      Like
    • Chris Norman Thats what caught my eye. I initially thought he had reprogrammed a Neeo. But upon closer inspection is it not the same at all. Current version has no physical button, just the touchscreen. New version will add 3 buttons. 

      Like
    • Fonzo I understand you pessimism. But remember this is a DIY project Marton created for himself. I am looking to open it up to anyone who wants to create their own version. 

      Now before you list a whole lot of drawbacks and critic the remote, there is a new design coming out that we are thinking of trying to make available to everyone. This is for creators and developers like yourself to help create a remote that everyone can use no matter what automation system they have in their home. And I was just trying to find a solution for the developers here to sink their teeth into now Neeo is not an option. Do you have another solution?

      Here is a link to his comments and details on Home Assistant forum https://community.home-assistant.io/t/touchscreen-remote-for-ha/99161 

      and the GitHub software https://github.com/martonborzak/touch-remote

      The new version will have 3 buttons, I know not enough, but at the moment money and design is a problem. A bigger battery is also on the cards and Marton is working on other battery saving options. But this is where the communities involvement will help. As Marton himself says, he is not a programmer/developer. 

      Now the remote does not have any IR or HDMI CEC control. It is simply a Hand held remote control that is designed to interface with other Control systems, whether it be a DIY HomeAssitant running on another RaspPI or Homey, Fibaro or Control4 (grrrrrrr) controller. Just like a Control4, RTI, Savant etc remote. It is not designed to be an all in one device like Neeo. As you can see that has far to much continual development needed. You need IR control, create a plugin for a Broadlink IR device or global cache Itach controller, this is what I aim to have the Remote used for. A simple, easy to use, always at hand AV remote. The battery only lasts about 1 day, of course there are other battery saving software designs that could be implemented to prolong use, but ultimately it is designed to be used for/with AV control and ultimately put back into its cradle. This means it should only need about 2-3 hours work time on average.

      Now remember I also am not a developer, so the best platform to use will be up to you. Remember it is basically a Rasp Pi, so you can create and do with it yourself, I just want to provide an easy to assemble starting block. But of course you can still use your own Ipod touch and customised scripts and apps if you prefer, it is not for everyone.

      But for those who want a new project to work, who would like to help create an opensource remote that any DIY, or professional can purchase, then assemble, and use with any automation system, then please show you interest.

      My goal is this:

      To have a remote with a standard UI and boot sequence that does the following upon boot

      1. Boots up and asks for Wifi connection details

      2. Update the remote to the latest software if user wants to. (alternatively you could load your own software via eg. github)

      3. Name the Remote

      4. Has a list of supporting Hubs, devices, products it supports and allows you to set each one up independently via IP address or some plug and play auto-detection if the developer creates the plugin in this way.

      5. Once a Hub/device is selected, the remote will be directed to the source code and download that software/plugin to allow connection and creation of pages/layout.

      6. App then goes to setup process of newly downloaded plugin

      7. Buttons will be totally configurable either by builtin software or automatically set via plugin page

       

      A remote that will be upgradable in terms of hardware. As this remote is designed around a Rasp Pi, then hopefully any future improvements to the Pi means a simple conversion for the remote also, giving you the best Hardware available at that time. 

       

      Having had a brief chat with Marton, I can tell you he is a very smart, polite and helpful person. He does not need to do this at all as it is his time and his IP he is willing to share. To this i think a big thank you is owed already. But the fact he is willing to create DIY kits for others is beyond his personal ambition and he is doing it purely for the greater communities out there. I am just trying to help him and hopefully see him earn a little monetary reward for his effort. Even if it will not cover all his time and effort.

      Stay tuned.......

      Like
    • Bendix Sørensen yes he is a lovely guy, that does not need to do any of this for us or anyone, but has agreed to look into it. I would just like to see him earn a little for his time. Also help out the developers here that have been left in the ditch. I think this could be an absolutely fantastic product if the developers here get on board and help develop this as a community rather than as an individual product to suit there own needs. But of course that is an option if they want to.

      We need more people like Marton in this world. There are a few here too.

      Like
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Adrian Van der Heijden I myself have no alternative idea. Spend more time to improve the NEEO makes little sense from my personal point of view, the device is no longer sold and I personally do not believe that the possibilities to get a good user interface will change or that the software is opened in parts. The device we are currently using will be able to be used with the current capabilities of the SDK and then just disappear in the foreseeable future completely from the scene. From my personal point of view, a remote needs buttons to be different from a device with just a touch display. The minimum number of keys for such a remote has used in my view NEEO. These include up, down, right, left, ok, volume and back, menu and home. Actually, at least play, pause should be also available as buttons. 

      If buttons are added to the existing DIY prototype, it is ultimately the device that many are looking for. It will certainly be used by open source solutions, but may well be considered as an input device for other commercially available home automation systems, if the quality is reached.

      I would not worry about connecting devices. There are finally enough systems that can already control many devices, whether open source projects or commercial platforms. The only requirement for such a remote is to pass the input you give to such a device via buttons and the touch display to the respective communicating system. As a user interface a defined HTML homepage should be set up in the device. Then you can operate the user interface of any home automation systems via the touch display.

      Like 1
    • Fonzo You definitely mean this one : https://www.savant.com/pro-remote

      Like
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Emmanuel Serebe At the moment the T2X from RTI is used as an alternative for NEEO. Is the Pro Remote from Savant also available in Europe? Is it possible to use the Savant Pro with other existing home automation system available in Europe or to redirect commands from the remote to existing home automation systems? Can one write own drivers for the savant pro? Is there a documented interface available?

      I myself use also a harmony elite, which is also made of plastic but does what it should.

      The Harmony Eilte has no voice button but is also controlled in my house via Alexa, Google Home and Siri.

      Like
    • Fonzo I only wanted to highlight what you were describing! I have already posted here before, a day or so that it's only for US and Canada. It seems to work like Harmony. It's got its own base controller. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho9eNPzM6mo

      Like
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Emmanuel Serebe It seems to work like Harmony

      The difference is certainly the harmony has no voice button. This requires a separate device such as an echo dot. On the other hand, the Logitech is also available in Europe and is think this is with a price tag of 200 € also significantly cheaper than a Savant. Ultimately, a Logitech Elite in combination with an existing home automation system does not have less functionality. But it is the exact opposite of Control 4, it is affordable and intended as a target group for customers who want to set things up themselves and do not want to hire an extra integrator or dealer.

      Like
      • Jan Pete
      • Techie
      • Jan_Pete
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Adrian Van der Heijden this is great. Is there a place tp interact with him? I would very much to leave this forum behind

      Like
  • Niels de Klerk said:

    I however lost faith. [...]


    Dillon Moulder said: This really saddens me Niels de Klerk . If you have reached this conclusion, then I think the entire community cannot ignore the reality of the situation.

    Well concluded. After Markus Mahr it's sad to see another of the main spokespeople for NEEO adjusting his projection on NEEO and even more the morals of the people behind it, even if it is the very same conclusion we came to earlier.

    I firmly think the  hope and ongoing believe Raphael and possibly his fellas at C4 about thousands of us is "it will go away soon".

    Well, they may believe so. I for myself have this eon enduring anodised aluminium memorial stele on my low board reminding me I make sure myself to be heard loud and clear every time  the opportunity raises to publically share my experience and take on what and who have now become essential part of C4.

    Like 2
  • Fonzo said:
    The alternative is to find a project or to assemble items together to build yourself a device that has a touch display and hardware buttons.

    Actully, depending on the hardbuttons desired, this should be not too hard to be implemented into the baseboard of Touchremote. Considering the hardware skills of the developer (as far one can tell from the pix) it would be a very nice handset. Integrating it into an IP host system like Homematic could most likely be achieved as well.

    Which leaves us with the battery stamina. I haven't checked yet in how much power could be saved by disabling the WiFi on a Pi (Zero W) but for sure there is a firm reason why remote hendsets usually do not talk high level / energy  WiFi but rather use Bluetooth, 6WPAN, or similar to communicate with a host (which again is mains powered) and beside that the Raspi is not known for being the most power efficient platform anyway.

    Like
  • What I don’t understand is why Control4 is killing the entire NEEO ecosystem.
    From my point of view it would have made sense to keep the NEEO system alive as Control4 can benefit from informations how users use their NEEO remote. When they would collect the data anonymous,  they could learn a lot how users are using their NEEO remote and what devices are used in the smart homes. Control4 can use this informations for trend analyisis, market knowledge and this knowledge can be used in future Control4 products.

    With the current facts, this thread is a litte hypocritical as
    a) all intellectual property moved over to Control4
    b) the hardware has no future as no longer sold
    c) no further development of the software


    What Control4 should do is the following
    a) restart selling the NEEO remote
    b) change the privacy statement to collect data in an anonymous form
    c) try to find volunteers willing to develop the product further
    d) in the beginning the ex-NEEO team has to support the volunteers
    e) change the marketing to something like that „first community driven smart home remote control“

    Just a thought...

    Like 1
  • I contacted Control4 and one of their Customer Advocates had this to say:

    ”Unfortunately we will not be fixing anymore bugs with the remotes, the latest firmware is the last firmware update. We wont be pushing anymore updates on the remotes. We've stopped all sales on them as well. The remotes will work how they've been working for the next 24 months. We are currently working on a upgrade option for NEEO customers, our upgrade solution would entail becoming a Control4 customer. Unfortunately I don't have any additional specifics at this time regarding the upgrade options yet. I know once they become available we will make an announcement.”

    It’s still very vague about exactly what happens after the 24-month period expires, and doesn’t offer much at all beyond what we know already. What it does confirm is that there will be no more bug fixes or updates, which means NEEO has been end-of-life’d.

    Like
  • Niels de Klerk in case you lost faith in Neeo, can you maybe still share how you got your own UI to show up on your remote? Do you have any input buttons working? E.g. anything we can hobby on together or in a smaller community?

    Like
    • Gilles van den Hoven I don't like answering for anyone but I think your answer to that question is here : https://community.athom.com/t/neeo-app/145

      The only sad thing is Control 4 is going to take that one over. Because it's too good. That man is a magician!

      Like 1
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Emmanuel Serebe The only sad thing is Control 4 is going to take that one over.

      Why should Control4 do that? This is not the target audience to which Control4 addresses. Control 4 is sold only through dealers and set up is nothing you could do on your own. There is no competition because NEEO is not sold anymore.

      Like
    • Emmanuel Serebe what do you mean? Homey is going to be taken over by Control4? or the Neeo App that Niels wrote?

      Like
    • Gilles van den Hoven You never know! But to make things sound even more funny I just ordered the Pro version. @Neils de  klerk  managed to convince me about its connectivity. And also being a risk taker when it comes to automation. Well, don't you just love that man's work?🤔

      And for the price, I think it's fair! ==> I once bought a URC MX 6000 and its base controller for thousands of pounds years ago only to end up in my scrap store! I was excited so much about it only to find out later that it had US and Canada frequency. 

      Like
    • Emmanuel Serebe Gilles van den Hoven  I’ve just shared my toolset. It’s acting as if it’s a brain to the TR2.

      https://github.com/nklerk/FakeBrainTool

      its not user friendly in any way. Currently it needs to run on a system that uses the IP address of the brain the remote used to connect to, while the code is running you can edit the XML GUI file. Once saved the remote will update.

       I need a way to hijack the remote to connect to my code without changing IP’s. But because of TR2 bugs this will be difficult.

      the TR2 sends out mDNS queries but these are not correct (bug1) so mDNS won’t work. It also try’s to use DNS, it queries the CP6 hostname but not fully qualified (FQDN) (BUG2) so that won’t work either. I’m assuming that both bugs are the reason that some users experience connectivity issues. 

      Another way the TR2 finds it’s way to the CP6 is by 6lopan. I’ve ordered a dongle hoping I can inspect what’s happening there.

      Like 5
      • Chris Shepherd
      • Software Engineer
      • Chris_Shepherd
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Niels de Klerk amazing work mate. Comms aren't my strong suite but if I can help in anyway then give me a shout

      Like
      • Tom M
      • Breaker of hardware, writer of bugs
      • Tom_M
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Niels de Klerk I have managed to find a reasonably priced second remote on ebay and I will be using this for some reverse engineering.   I want to look inside the brain and remote but my black cat edition is too nice to go at with a screwdriver :)

      Like
    • Niels de Klerk 🤞

      Like
    • Tom M I’ll share how to get console in/output of the brain tomorrow. That will certainly help do just that

      Like
    • Chris Shepherd i saw you are already started following me on Twitter (i was like; "hmm where did i see that foam bearded guy before?") but i am trying to take a different route. Probably Niels de Klerk already tackled most stuff i am retrying but it doesn't hurt to try again. I was a software architects for the global Philips IOT platform; so stubbornness is in my nature.

      So what i've done so far is this:

      • Checked the brain UI via Chrome to see which URLs are callable
      • I managed to find out that (next to the known ports 22, 53, 3000 and 3200) also some other ports are open, via nmap. Nothing special there.
      • Then i started looking how the brain exposes itself on the network. I've tried SSDP but ended up writing a mDNS server which responds to a specific query. The brain does use SSDP to expose the recipes for Alexa btw, but that is a different topic.
      • I also managed to open a websocket connection to my current brain, which makes me thing they implemented this; https://socket.io/docs/#Using-with-Express

      Status:

      With my current mDNS implementation, i am able to see my 'fake' brain in the Neeo APP. This proves that i can at least fake the app and pretend there are more brains on the network.

       

      This is where i stopped yesterday. If you click on my brain it gives a connection error, which makes sense because i do not expose the UI yet on port 3200. I only have an Express server running on port 3000 (also for the websockets).

      What do i want to achieve?

      1. Get my brain discoverable via the APP (done)
      2. Connect to my brain via the APP to show hello world. (- in progress)
      3. Create a simple UI which shows actual button presses with help from Niels' code.
      4. Get my brain discoverable via the remote
      5. Connect to my brain via the remote
      6. Show my UI on the remote

      If i have this working (i doubt that it will work based on Niels' comments above) i can maybe repurpose my remote to connect to either Home Assistant or my own made brain (idea there would be Raspberry Pi Zero with HDMI-CEC capabilities and Bluetooth, maybe add IR as well if needed). But then i would have the full freedom to add stuff since it is just a Pi.

      p.s. We might want to create a new topic altogether for the 'brain hacking' to keep the future and that part separated. Basically it is a 'there is no future, but we have the hardware' venture.

      Like 5
      • Tom M
      • Breaker of hardware, writer of bugs
      • Tom_M
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Niels de Klerk I have to say that from a hardware design standpoint Neeo have done a nice job.   I've not opened the remote yet but the brain is very neat and tidy.   This isn't some quick hack job.   Although the hand soldering looks a little sub par.   I'll let them off as lead free solder is horrible stuff.   We certainly got good value for money on the hardware.

      However someone needs to tell the mech eng that hard anodise is not conductive :)   The four grounding lugs around the PCB do absolutely nothing.

      Like
    • Tom M I havent opend it (yet) as I was still hoping (presumably in vain forever) to receive the license to mess kit that I was promised by Raphael prior to possibly scratching it. But one could tell from the pictures duriong the campaign that the pcb layout was upo to professional standards - but what worth is software dependent hardware without software? Re the ground lugs: you'Re sure they haven't cut the threads after anodizing or filling the holes prior? (that's what we do on our products, depending if they get anodised or powdercoated).Also, a tothwasher can do magic....

      Like
      • Tom M
      • Breaker of hardware, writer of bugs
      • Tom_M
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Klaus Grosser The tabs just sit on the inner surface of the chassis.   The plastic top and bottom are the parts that screw together and the PCB along with the aluminium centre part are clamped between them.   I checked with a meter as I wanted to be sure.   Open circuit!

      I know we don't have full blown right to repair in the EU/UK but I've not seen anything from Neeo that says the hardware is leased.   The warranty is null and void now anyway as they've officially end of lifed the hardware and software.   No anti-tamper screws on the Neeo either.

      I just replaced the display in my Squeezebox Boom, I doubt Logitech care :)

      Now imagine if Logitech had bought Neeo.......

      Like
    • Tom M "Licence to Mess" was a promo campaign they were running with a few selected people aledgedly to receive a kit of components (pc covers, spare case, screws etc.) rather than the (also granted) permission to open wihtout voiding the warranty (which needs proof of existence anyway). I was reluctant to tamper as long I was not sure if I would sell the product because it was not fulfilling my expectations. Now it will be hard to sell so I shouldn't be afraid about mangling with the hardware. Still, I prefer at least a non offensive form even if function leaves a lot to be desired.

      Like
    • Klaus Grosser Tom M if you opened the brain already would you mind sharing a fe high res pictures of the PCB? Anything looking like a left jtag there ?

      Like
    • Gilles van den Hoven that s look promising ! It would be already nice to be able to use the remote with home assistant  or anything else :)

      Like
    • Loic I’ll share bits and pieces soon. Including the TTL pins. Firmware images API’s and more. On my GitHub you’ll find my fakebrain toolbox. It’s raw code I made to further discover stuff.

      Like 2
    • Niels de Klerk if someone with a oscilloscope could find the exact remote pin layout, that would be helpful

      Like
      • Tom M
      • Breaker of hardware, writer of bugs
      • Tom_M
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Niels de Klerk that is my master plan.   The brain appears to be a variant of an off the shelf SOM which makes life easy.

      Like 1
      • Tom M
      • Breaker of hardware, writer of bugs
      • Tom_M
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Olivier Oswald Nice pics.   I've not got into the remote yet.   Shame the schematics are not public :)

      So what is the sensor type thing that points out the back of the remote?

      And what is the 6 pin device between the buttons for Menu and Down and again between Back and Up?

      Like
    • Tom M 

      1. hand recognition sensor (IR cam?) Don't care, not in use

      2. if I'm not completely wrong those'd be the accelerometers/gyros to wake up the remote on picking it up

      Like
      • Tom M
      • Breaker of hardware, writer of bugs
      • Tom_M
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Klaus Grosser the one on the back has to be the hand sensor but no idea how they intended it to work.   I need to get some really good macro pics but the batteries in my ring flash had leaked so I spent last night cleaning it :(

      Like
    • Tom M as said I would suggest it's an IR camera/sensor that was supposed to do 2 things: detect the lines on the users palm plus serve as receiver for IR learning. I won't argue it's ever been functional and I wouldn't be too surprised if that's down to the root why we neither saw palm recognition nor IR learning.

      Like 1
      • Tom M
      • Breaker of hardware, writer of bugs
      • Tom_M
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Klaus Grosser Highly possible.   I need to get my trusty logic analyser out and sample some signals.   Certainly making a 38kHz demodulator in VHDL pretty darn easy.

      Like 2
    • Niels de Klerk " if someone with a oscilloscope could find the exact remote pin layout, that would be helpful" I could do this, what do you need exactly?

      Like
    • Klaus Grosser +, dat0, clk, and command of the eMMC chip. More info here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=piILxlabFws

      Like 1
    • Niels de Klerk may take a bit as I am swamped with finalizing preproduction stage for one of our own products, but will look into it definitely.

      Like 1
    • Klaus Grosser thanks m8

      Like
  • Niels de Klerk count me in on any Open Source effort.

    Like
  • Dillon Moulder said:
    It’s still very vague about exactly what happens after the 24-month period expires

     Hm, shall I guess?

    To me it's pretty clear, the only reason this 24 months "grace" period merely being in place  is just that they did the fatal slip selling NEEO direct to a couple end users on the European market which effectively made them the dealer and subsequently tied them to the 2 years liability. I bet they had been struggling hard to close the deal before that became necessity but missed the boat by oh such a margin. Now C4 had to take over that responsibility and all they maintain is the bare minimum of judical obligations.

    This together with the under the radar communication instead of speaking franly that our remotes are the walking dead as of this very moment leaves enough to know about the ethics of  former and current owners of the IP alike and hence what is to be expected beyond that timeline: NOTHING. They just do this because of possible consequences and bad press, but personally, I wouldn't even be surprised if they decide to flick a kill swtch on every NEEO that has not taken the "preferred upgrade benefit (to C4)" once the liabilty period has been passed.

    Like 4
  • May I suggest that we move "community development efforts" to an independent MediaWiki, gitlab, etc - take https://wiibrew.org/ as an example. This forum will probably shut down soon and the community knowhow is buried deep inside threads.

    (btw, GitHub is no good home as repos can easily be taken down via DMCA)

    Like 1
      • Tom M
      • Breaker of hardware, writer of bugs
      • Tom_M
      • 1 yr ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Olivier Oswald I'm working on this, I have registered a suitable domain.   Just sorting out hosting.

      We should not be doing anything that might result in a DMCA.

      Like 3
    • Bernard Cooper
    • Software Tester / Tech Enthusiast / Disenchanted KS NEEO backer
    • Bernard_Cooper
    • 1 yr ago
    • 1
    • Reported - view

    https://www.irisbylowes.com/

    Happened upon this in the forums for another Kickstarter project that is struggling a little at the moment (Mycroft AI) and came across this link for a smart home platform that is closing down as of the end of this month.

    They've open sourced their software.

    Just sayin'.

    Like 1
    • hura
    • Huber_Raphael
    • 10 mths ago
    • 2
    • Reported - view

    Raphael Patrick

    bitte seid mal ehrlich...

    habt ihr überhaupt noch vor, irgendwann mal infos bezüglich dem weiteren gebrauch der neeo zu posten?

    finde es unter aller sau, dass man die eigenen unterstützer so verarscht und dann nicht mal antworten liefert!

    wäre nichts als anstand, wenn ihr wenigstens die jenigen die euren coup überhaupt erst ermöglicht haben, auch beim abgang entsprechend unteestützt.

    Like 2
    • hura Vergiss es. Raphael hat seine Sachen schon längst in seiner neuen Villa ausgepackt und ich bin mir sicher, alles was mit NEEO zu tun hat abgestellt, sprich E-Mail Adressen etc. wird er nicht mehr erhalten.

      Hier wird auch nix mehr passieren, ich denke das Forum wird in Kürze abgeschaltet werden, es verläuft sich ja eh schon und was sollen die letzten Mitarbeiter auch schon machen. Bestandteil des C4 Vertrages ist unter Garantie die vollständige Hard- und vor allem Software gewesen. Dass diese als OpenSource freigegeben wird wäre zu schön, wird aber zu 100% nicht passieren, da man den C4 Partnern damit ja ihrer Hoheit berauben würde.

      Wir müssen hier mal ehrlich zu uns selbst sein. Dass wir den Start in ein, vermutlich sehr luxeriöses Leben, ermöglicht und dafür nun ein Stück High-End Elektronik bekommen haben. Ohne Software hat die NEEO für mich inzwischen nur noch Schrottwert und ich bin mir sicher, dass sich daran nichts ändern wird falls nicht jemand einen Jailbreak hin bekommt - was ich auch bezweifle.

      Like 2
    • Björn Stengel So schaut's wohl aus - und es passt ja auch hervorragend in das Bild, das er während und nach der Kampagne abgliefert hat.

      "Was, IR Learning,? Braucht man doch nicht - wir haben was viel Besseres -  geplante Obsoleszenz!"

       

      Trotzdem, bzw. gerade darum ist es deshalb gerade wichtig überall ordentlich Rabatz zu machen, wo die Namen NEEO, Raphael Oberholzer und C4 fallen.

      Like
  • Just open up the remote, so we can control the software on it. We can live without the brain and whatever IR codes and other IP you want to protect.

    We just need to be able to build GUI elements and send commands. Us tinkerers can take it from there. There are plenty of brain alternatives out there, including cheap and simple ESP8266 boards. I've been using Forward actions to great effect so far. We just need GUI control.

    Better yet, give us the ability to flash our own software onto the remote and some of us might actually fell we're better off than before

    Like 6
  • Sooo. We’re screwed aren’t we. 

     

    If we could just get the cloud software as a PC app and the ability to repoint the brain to that “server”. I’d be fine as it is with no more features. Just would not like the loss of configuration changes, backups and such. 

    Like
      • Bernard Cooper
      • Software Tester / Tech Enthusiast / Disenchanted KS NEEO backer
      • Bernard_Cooper
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      That is the least they owe us for getting Raphael a foot in the door with Control4.  Building your platform on a cloud component reeks of egotism and short-sightedness, especially if you're a scrappy start-up.  It looks like YIO is shaping up to be everything that NEEO isn't.

      Like
  • Patrick said:
    We are here to listen.

     Where ?

    Like 1
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