State aware / switching modes

I'm thinking about cancelling my order because of the lag of the following below. Can neeo please respond if these basic functionality is going to be fixed Soon?

 

Neeo is not state aware? But... How can you then change from e.g. watching tv to watching dvd?

 

On January 24 2015(!) I asked here in the comments:

"@Creator: A thing that the soon-to-be-replaced Logitech Harmony has gotten right, is the 'Help' button: The remote is "state aware". If one of the your devices happen to miss e.g. a turn-on-command, all you have to do is press 'help' and then the remote will start an interactive process where you by answering yes/no to a series of questions end up having all your devices in the right mode for the activity you want.

It sounds like your "scenarios" are somewhat similar to Logitech's "activities". Right?

Do you have a method for aligning the state of the devices in a setup with what Neeo thinks it is?"

 

...and this is what neeo replied on january 25 2015:

 

"@ThomasDN: Yes - there is a method in there for aligning states - but: if you get into such a situation something wrong happened before. Automation must be reliable. This is #1 reason why we spent so much time and manpower on the database. We have a huge (probably world's largest) collection of discrete IR codes (which are codes you don't find on the manufacturer's remote). Those discrete commands will avoid situations with wrong states happening. We have spent many years in automation and customers would have kicked out our gear quite quickly if the thing works unreliable. You will like the way it's solved with NEEO. You basically get what was only found in very expensive home automations systems until now."

 

If neeo is not state aware:

- How do you change from one activity to another?

- What do you do if an IR command is not picked up by e.g. the tv?

 

Regarding kodi neeo wrote on January 22 2015:

"Kodi/XBMC has been asked very often it will be a high priority."

A feature can have high priority for two and a half years and still not be done? How long will features take if they are not high priority?

Reply
28replies Oldest first
  • Oldest first
  • Newest first
  • Active threads
  • Popular
  • This is easily done if your devices have discrete on/off codes. If you are in Blu-ray recipe and switch to directv recipe, you just need to add a power off command for blu-ray player (or any additional devices you want off) at the end of the directv recipe.  Since the neeo always sends a power on command whenever switching recipes, your devices will stay in sync.  If your devices only have power toggle, this probably will not work.

    Reply Like
  • You also can vote over here for the Power State Thing! This is not a fault, this is a fature they implemented. In a newer version of the Firmware the user can decide how NEEO should choose during a switching from one to annother recipe. As you mentioned, this feature is also integreted in the Logitech remotes.

    But anyway, if these are your only Problems, i wonder what else you have. Consider that the Firmware is not in a Release state and that you and everybody else help to get the Software to this state by helping NEEO to be able to do their Jobs. It i a new Product and it needs some time. The first Logitech Remote was at the same state in the beginning, but this is over 12 Years away now. If NEEO will get 12 Years old, you probably never use a remote again or even watch TV...

    Reply Like
  • Hm - somebody has seen my comment on the Kickstarter page! ;-)

    Reply Like 1
    • Thomas Nielsen I don't read over at KS, i think the comment section hold more BS then is actually in here. But that is my treu opinion. <- That doesn't mean, here are less BS posts, but that depence on the Situation such a big project brings.

      Reply Like
  • Neeo is not state aware. Well there has been lots of talks about discreet on/off codes. This is only one situation that ruins the experience. 

    For instance Neeo does not remember the last used video source. So it has no idea how to switch to the correct source unless you have direct codes for input switching. 

    Unfourtnalty a lot of devices do not have discreet codes. So our devices are "stupid" and has made Neeo useless for me. 

    Reply Like
    • Jason NEEO will never be able to know the state of the Equipment, unless u use 2-Way Communication (What IR -main used feature in AV Equipment- isn't). That is not possible without pay Logitech a lot of money unless about 3 or 5 years from now. Thats why it is SO fu***** hard to get on the Remote market and the Logitechs are what they are! If you further Interested with this fact look over this Patent from them!

      So NEEO must either Pay, or find a solution that is working and user friendly as it can be, and that is the current situation they (and every other Company) must deal with!

      Reply Like
    • Markus Mahr 

      And even the Logitech Harmony doesn't get  it right 100% of the time. That is why the have a help function.

      i was either using power or video sensors with my Pronto to determine whether a device was on or off or use two communication using either RS-232 or IP.

      At some point NEEO will be frogleaping Logitech.

      Reply Like
      • Jason
      • Jason
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Markus Mahr this is pretty basic, not sure why its so hard to get, No I never said Neeo needs two way communication. It need to remeber the last used state. If select "watch a movie" and after the movie I power everything off. Next morning I pick up my remote and select "watch tv" the remote should "Remember" that I last had it set up on the watch a movie recipies. Therefore it knows what it needs to turn on and what inputs it needs to set. 

       

      Here's the thing. Neeo does not do this if you have a a "stupid" device. It makes you power on and switch to the right inputs manually.  (Even though it's capable or sending the right IR signal)

      Harmony on the other hand "knows" that it was last set to watch a movie. So it powers everything on. Then sends the input toggle however many times is needed to get to the tv input. It knows how many are needed because it asked during setup whay inputs the device has. 

      Neeo does not do this. It does not rwmeber the last state. And the fact is that Neeo was advertised as a home automation hub. Making me push a button 4 or 5 times to do what harmony does with one button push is not automation. 

      I get Neeo is a new company. But they have stated they have no plan to support this and instead think they can change every device manufactures mind about discreet codes. 

      Reply Like
      • Jason
      • Jason
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Paul Spee No, Neeo will not be around long enough to frogleap Logitech. As has been point out, it took many, many years for Logitech to get to what it is now. Neeo will be surpassed by some ones dangled technology long before they get the experience Logitech has. Not a diss on Neeo. Just how technology will advance. 

      Reply Like
    • David Savopoulos 

      I couldn’t disagree more. If Logitech is your baseline, you should focus on what they have NOT accomplished, with all the time they’ve had to do it, rather than what little they have accomplished. Their products advance very little from one year to the next, and in the user friendly category they are stagnant compared to others out there trying to truly improve the end user experience. If the good folks at NEEO stay on top of their game and continue to innovate, there’s no reason why they can’t easily surpass Logitech in no time flat. Speaking of flat, that’s another good point - organizationally they are flat and flexible. That gives them a huge advantage operationally over a bloated, top heavy outfit like Logitech, because they don’t suffer the layers of bureaucracy and red tape that waste so much time during the development phase of new products. 

      Sure, Logitech has the cash and resources to innovate, but I don’t think they’re successful because of that, they’re successful in spite of themselves and the lack of true competition. 

      Bravo, NEEO, don’t stop for anything or anyone, and stay lean and mean!

      Reply Like 3
    • Jason and that is what I wrote about. It is not possible, that NEEO knows the state, because Logitech has a patent on this and you need to pay to use it in your product. 

      The days when I was buying a new product, I was aware of these stupidity of some of the manufacturers and I don't buy such a product. At least my only stupid device is my set top box (a dreambox, high powered, open source, Linux based receiver but also without discrete power commands). That is why I wrote the SDK driver for it and it is know possible to determine the power state. 

      And if more people are aware of stupidity and don't buy such products, it will help all.

      But don't pay money to a company that patent a logic step!

      Reply Like
      • Jason
      • Jason
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Markus Mahr  are you really trying to claim Logitech has a patent on asking basic questions and performing inputs based on those questions? I find that very hard to believe. Most of Logitech work arounds come frome it's user suggesting. Mayne their algorithm is patentened. But that's like saying that Apple has a patent on finger print reading (they do), yet almost all android devices offer the same thing. My point is even what you say is true. There are many different ways to accomplish the same task. And if Neeo expects to compete they need to out think, and out smart the competition. 

      That said, I don't believe Logitech has a patent on basic commands. I doubt that is even able to be patented. 

      Set up in my harmony is straight forward, as you can see by my screen shots, it asked basic questions and then uses the answers to know what to do. This has nothing to do with manufactures and they do not lay any royalties for what is common questions. 

      I get that you believe in Neeo. So do I, if I did not I would not continue to visit here in hopes they will come up with a fully  working product. 

      The bottom line is for the ones who are willing to spend $200 to $400 on a remote are the type that will research it first. They will find planet.neeo.com and they will find kickstarter. Both of which are filled with negative comments at the moment. (Some justified, some not) why then would a typical customer have any reason to choose a Neeo over a harmony. Especially if whay you say is true and Neeo will never offer the automation harmony does.

      I do hope Neeo can work to solve this. I do believe in that they are trying to redefine the home remote situation. And as hard as my feedback may seem it is just meant to hopefully help improve Neeo and explain what my expectations (and what I believe most others will be) so in the future it can become what team Neeo believes it will be. 

      But until then, I will have to stick with harmony just based on the simplicity and the fact the the current software is smart enough to ask the right questions.

      Reply Like 1
    • Jason The input screen that you shared from the competitor product above is actually exactly what creates a horrible experience. Do you think a non technical users has a chance to even understand what the questions above mean? We handle this differently and with the upcoming CEC support I would believe there is no similar stable and reliably solution in the market. Stay tuned. By reading your posts here one could think that the majority of NEEO users struggle with this. Reality is the majority of users do not even own ANY stupid devices. The exact handling and what's coming up is described here: https://planet.neeo.com/t/m2fpkz/stupid-devices
      Also, you seem to confuse home automation with the handling of some IR commands a bit. You should look into the recipe builder, the Z-Wave support and all the IP controlled devices auch us SONOS support like not other etc before you come up with weird statements like this. 

      Reply Like
      • Jason
      • Jason
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Raphael I'm confusing home automating with IR really? No home automation is exactly that. It is automating the home. Weather it is by Z wave, Zigbee or over IP. It is still all home automation. Take three guesses where my tv and media equipment is located....that's right it's in my home. I appreciate what Neeo is trying to do with a all in one hub. But don't try to insult my intelligence by claiming that IR has no place in home automation. IR MAY NOT be ideal for home automation but it is 100% a current part of it. 

      Reply Like
      • Jason
      • Jason
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Raphael  as i fully admit my knowledge of CEC is not as much as other things because in my limited experience with it it's always gave me problems. So if I may let me ask a few questions.

      1. Currently CEC is labeled differently by most manufactures. (They like to be fancy) and it is also implemented slightly differently be each manufacture. Hi do you plan to solve the confusion that alone will cause as that can get more complicated than IR? 

      2. I see the Neeo brain has 1 HDMI port. I assume this is for CEC. How is this supposed to work? For instance let's use the ps4 as a example. It has one HDMI out. If I were to hook that into the Neeo brain to get CEC how is it also supposed to connect to my tv? As Neeo does not offer a pass through HDMI port? Also as CEC is almost consistantley on the same port as ARC, are you expecting poeple to give up the ARC feature? Are you expecting people to use splitters? ( i asked this on kickstarter a year ago and got no reply) With the new bandwidth 4k and her require that may lead to problems. Especially if the distance if the HDMI cable is longer than 9 ft. 

      3. The new HDMI 2.1 standard was developed recently and will start to appear in devices soon enough. As I'm sure you know it brings a lot of improvements to the table. One of them being a much more streamlined version of CEC that forces the manufactures to play nicely together. As I'm sure Neeo does not support HDMI 2.1 and it is not something that can be upgraded by software. How do you plan on handling This?

      4. As I said above. The new HDMI standard will make CEC much more cooperative between device manufactures. There fire allowing your average Joe to be able to just use his TV remote to control everything. Kind of making a universal remote obsolete. 

      #2 I'm really confused about because I would either need to use a splitter cable. (Most serious A/V enthusiast will not do this)

      Or I would have to give up a port specifically for Neeo and loose the ARC feature? And even then I'm still not sure it would work it the current standards. 

      I could go into a lot more detail on why I do not believe CEC as being the solution but I'm curious how you may have solved the issues it currently presents. 

      Reply Like
    • Jason Our engineering team thought of that. You only need to be in the CEC chain. One free HDMI port on any of your devices will do. Let's say if the Brain is connected to he HDMI4 port of your TV it actually controls a playstation that is let's say connected to your TV via an AVR. You will see all this acne available for you. Thanks

      Reply Like
      • Arunas M
      • Arunas_M
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Raphael thanks. Any idea when we could expect this feature to be available publicly? 

      Reply Like
    • Raphael Can you share some plans on CEC. it sounds like a great way to do this but I don't know the standart well enough. In my case my TV is allready controlled via CEC from the Receiver and I would need to controll 2 devices, 1 is the receiver and the second the TV to enable the right input. Unfortunately the Receiver is fully blocked with HDMI inputs so I also use the native channels at the TV.

       

      Is this going to be looped in somehow or do you require a free hdmi Input at the controlled device ?

       

      Can you controll a chain of devices (receiver and TV in my case) even if the Receiver is tuned on a different channel then the Neeo is pluged in 

       

      Example: TV needs to switch to input 3 (the Receiver), Receiver needs to switch to input GAME) and neeo is connected to AUX1 at the receiver. In this scenario I need TV control (at least initial input switching) and receiver control while the Receiver itself is connected to a different channel ...

       

      Stefan

      Reply Like
    • Stefan Marx Well try to answer myself. It needs to active connected so in my case it would be required to free up a slot at the tv to be allways in the cec chain ...

      Reply Like
    • Stefan Marx some of the newer avrs can handle the cec without being on the actual input. In the case you connect the HDMI to your TV, be aware, that the TV mus have HDMI ARC (or Sound Output active on the HDMI Port. Some of the manufacturers are not fully implement the feature on every HDMI port. The most only implement it on HDMI1.

      An other option would be to get a Switch behind your AVR that is capable of HDMI-CEC switching as well and let NEEO do the control.

      This is at least how i understand the HDMI-CEC Standard, but i didn't use it activly at the moment.

      My only active device currently is the Amazon FireTV, becaus it is not capable of deactivating it...

      Reply Like
  • Conclusion is that neeo does not have the patent and says not to change it. So if I want to switch from "watch tv" to "watch pc" mode , is just can't with 1 click like now? (Set tv box off, set receiver to pc, control kodi on pc) 

    that should be 1 click...

    Reply Like
      • Patrick@NEEO
      • Community Manager
      • Patrick
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Mark Verschuuren I do think in the way you understand "state aware" NEEO actually is. NEEO always knows in which recipe you are in and which devices are running. We also do handle many power commands smartly, so that they are not sent when devices are already running. We even do smart delays, meaning we won't do delays when we know a device is already running (for example waiting 20 seconds for a TV which has that long until it accepts input commands).

      Markus Mahr is right though, that is an assumption for IR controlled devices, not a state which we can actually measure.

      Switching over to a different source is as simple as one click if you are in the room home screen when you are on the control screen of a specific recipe it will take two since you will have to go back to the home screen first.

      A different topic is what we call stupid devices, these are devices which do not have specific commands for power on, power off and specific inputs. We have written over here how we handle these and why we think it is the best approach. 

      Reply Like
      • Jason
      • Jason
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Patrick let's be clear Patrick and say what it is. It is only one click if the devices are not considered stupid by Neeo. It works great when other remotes attempts to do it .

      As I said above, keep making up excuses instead of fixing the problem. It is the negativity that Neeo is currently receiving that will in the end doom it. 

      Or you could actually try to come to a solution and offer a truly competitive product. Just some advice, as I accepted my money was gone the moment I backed you guys on kickstarter. 

      Reply Like
      • Jason
      • Jason
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Patrick I'll follow up with one more thing, if Patrick what you claim is true, give me one reason why a typical consumer would purchase a Neeo that's does not offer the convince and speed of one click, over a (more affordable) harmony that does offer speed and convince? 

      If it's because Neeo had a better build quality, or because Neeo has a higher resolution screen, or is it the hand recognition that, let's face it. Will never work. (No matter how I hold the remote that sensor never presses against my palm unless I hold it in a very awkward position) 

      All of that takes a back seat to what people really want form a universal remote. And what people really look for is speed and convince. Technoligy had made us expect things to work when we asked them to. (Push one button) if Neeo can't provide that then what dies it offer that the competition does not. 

      Reply Like
    • Patrick Ah ok - then I'm calm again. ;-) No of course neeo cannot know the *actual* state of the devices but knowing what recipe you are in is what I was expecting. Thanks for the reply.

      Reply Like
  • So now there is still no clear answer from neeo :

     

    - can I switch with 1 button from "watch tv" to "watch pc" ? Just 1 like my harmony does.

    watch tv;

    turn on tv incorrect input

    turn on receiver on correct input

    turn on tv decoder

     

    watch pc:

    keep on tv

    change input on receiver

    turn off tv decoder

    control kodi

     

    thats it, and off course more switches between recipes . But it should be 1 click like it is now

    Reply Like
    • Mark Verschuuren yes you can.

      Reply Like 2
      • Jason
      • Jason
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Mark Verschuuren only if none of you're devices are considered "stupid" if they are it will not switch inputs or send powers toggle commands. So the correct answer is..maybe?...

      Reply Like
Like Follow