How big is the NEEO development team?

How many developers are employed full-time right now writing code for the NEEO?
Has NEEO run out of money? From a customer perspective it seems like it.

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  • Alan Collier just use the Search you see all NEEO Employees. You need to enter @NEEO and filter some small amount of people out. Then also consider that there are some for Managing the Community and managing the comapny. From arround 30-40 people there are still 20 left i guess.

    Why did you think they run out of money? Only becuase there is no new software available? This is bull****.

    Reply Like
    • Only becuase there is no new software available?

      Only? What else are the 20 ("i guess") developers doing?!

      Reply Like
    • Alan Collier

      They perfoming car races and sitting on the beach burning money, drinking bear and catch fishes!

      What should a developer do? they are developing new features and improve the software. As allready can be read in other Topics here at planet.neeo, they have issues with the release and try to kill bugs and issues.
      
      Also consider that these 20 developers must be split in different Software sections (e.g. Core Software, Z-Wave, Zigbee, Bluetooth, WiFi, SDK and Driver Team, ...).
      Reply Like
    • Markus Mahr If we assume that you're correct and their work is backing up behind large monolithic releases, then it's time to change their delivery model.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_delivery

      Reply Like
    • Alan Collier Apparently after this big update, updates will be more regular at monthly intervals someone wrote. Of course, this has not been proven yet and based on the update frequency from NEEO in general over the last few years, let's just say I'd be pleasantly surprised if they did manage to stick to a new regular schedule. 

      Reply Like 1
    • James Long I'm not holding my breath! (First shipments March 2015 - forgiven but not forgotten).

      A fixed/regular schedule for releases could actually be a curse. What would make the difference is having a properly managed, architected, and tooled CI/CD pipeline so that releases and rollbacks are automated and well exercised. It shouldn't take a month to deploy a fix for a minor bug or security vulnerability, that should go from developer to customers in <24hrs. With that in place the major (feature) releases can occur when they are ready, rather than to some rigid (e.g. monthly) routine.

      Reply Like 1
      • Emanuel
      • Builder @AWS
      • cro13
      • 1 yr ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      I am Emanuel, one of the new developers which have just joined NEEO recently. The team is growing quickly and we should therefore be able to implement changes faster.

      Alan Collier 
      We are making some changes towards that direction where can deliver faster to the community. We acknowledge that current approach has generated frustration to a few users, we are actively working on it so hopefully you should see faster, meaningful updates more regularly from next release on.

      Reply Like 3
    • Markus Mahr Still bull****?

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    • Alan Collier I still belive, that when it comes to people count i have written the correct statement. For the other parts, it is sad to see, that they are now buyed, but this is life in the tech industry.

      I'm not happy with the situation (to make it clear) but i also not able to chenge the decision made by the team. The saddest is, that the Neeo is gone now.

      Reply Like
  • Nearly 2 months since the last release.
    Many major features still missing.
    So I ask again. How many developers are working on this product?
    It feels like this company is dying/dead.

    Reply Like
      • Maik
      • Maik
      • 7 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Alan Collier the response time to add new devices is record-setting fast. My last two requests for that were fulfilled the same day, the same goes for asking for new icons for favorites. This is what matters most to me—I have a new device, and I get support immediately. Neeo is doing a very good job on this.

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    •   Maik Adding device support isn't development, it's configuration and it's relatively very easy. NEEO isn't living up to it's own hype and it's starting to look suspicious. I'm a backer and I had high hopes but now I'm sad. There have been no improvements in transparency, nor no noticeable increase in releases and features. I suspect the dev team is what, 3 people max? This whole platform will be obsolete before it's met its potential due to an under-resourced, closed-source dev model. Maybe time to open-source the software and make money from the hardware alone?

      Reply Like
      • Maik
      • Maik
      • 7 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Alan Collier Yeah, I’ve been a backer, too. Also took over somebody else’s bid who lost confidence along the way. For me, Neeo does all that I need, and quick enough if I need more. It took them a while to get there, but I am happy with the product. I know it still lacks some promised features, but they are not relevant for me. Your mileage may vary.

      Reply Like
    • Alan Collier I don't think that a company is dying. There are plenty of request and questions raised here and commented from both neeo users and neeo stuff.

      Also the Team is grown since your last post in the same direction, just again search for @neeo and compare the results of people.

      Reply times over at github are even faster when it comes to issues or questions SDK related. Also they implementing lots of new features and stuff for the NEEO.

       

      The most driving issue why there is a firmware gap is the current nice weather and holiday season across whole Europe, so most of the developers / people take a few weeks of work and enjoy quality time with the family and / or enjoy the weather.

       

      Also in the last Software updates there where new features implemented that are public usable and supporting more tech stuff. Thus it is not what you like to see, doesn't mean that it is not a feature plus in general. Also some of the (still missing) kickstarter features needs more time to be implemented then it is compared to add new devices. Also this needs to be done in a way that does not break any other code / running threads, therefor it also needs to be tested internally. Internals are never get there way to the public and that is normal!

       

      Open source the software wouldn't profit from any side, since the community isn't big enough ( in my eyes) and there are to less developers to enhance the software in a save way. What would the benefit be from your view?

       

      I'm not a programmer at all, but I like the help here when it comes to SDK / API questions and allways try to help others when they have questions. There are currently not much people developing things for NEEO with the help of the api / SDK, the handful that do so are making thinks they see needs for by themselves and also use them by themself, and that's what this feature is all about. It is your requested "open source usage" of neeo, since nearly all things neeo is capable can be used with a combination of these features.

      Reply Like
  • Alan Collier said:
    This whole platform will be obsolete before it's met its potential due to an under-resourced, closed-source dev model.

    NEEO provides both an API and SDK. Various people, myself included, have successfully developed drivers.

    Reply Like
      • Christian
      • Christian
      • 7 mths ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Paul Spee Well, these drivers cant be installed directly on the brain. So right now for most of the people they are just useless. 

      Reply Like 2
    • Christian i believe that most users have a computer. the drivers run on windows, linux and macos (even posible on a NAS and Android box) so that should cover most users. Drivers can also run from the brain itself, the developing user only has to offer the driver to NEEO and request inclusion. I do agree that being able to simply install drivers to the brain yourself would increas usability but it's not useless without this posibility. There is quite a large group of users that help other users to archieve them to run drivers. its only a question of are you willing to put in some time to do it.

      I think it's only normal they keep their interlectual property save like any other company does for obvious reasons. On the other hand they provide an API that supports all the features the APP and remote support and more. and are very open in SDK based drivers and intergration with other HA systems.

      Asking for the amount of developers will not bring you anywhere. That there haven't been an update doesn't tell anything about the developers either. The question that does matters is what are you really missing right now? and what are you hoping to see next? Aslo be sure to check the voting section.

      Reply Like 1
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 7 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Niels de Klerk Neither the API nor the SDK can compensate for missing functions of the NEEO itself. NEEO has bluetooth hardware build in, but does not support it. You can not learn simple unknown IR codes to the device. The menu in NEEO is awful slow. You can not customize icons and text and so on.

      That are all examples that have to be solved be NEEO and the develpoment team by herself. Even a sdk exist, you can only use this functions that are supportetd by the sdk, so no control of devices via bluetooth etc.

      Reply Like 1
    • Fonzo 

      I don't usually jump into these discussions because they are largely personal opinions.  However, I do want to state a few things about SDK - we can do about 90% of what you ask about.  Right now (with the SDK) - I can control bluetooth, zigbee, zwave and almost all of my devices via IP.  I control everything from my sprinkler system, to my garage door opener to thermostats, and have great rules engine to boot.  In addition, I have complete remote (ie distance wise) access to everything with integration with all the current new stuff (KNX, MQTT, Alex, homekit, etc).  I can assign my own text to labels, can assign my own icons and even support lists, etc.  I can even learn IR codes and use those learnt ones - all with the SDK

      What I can't do - is use some of the functions natively (which is what I think you are really complaining about) and I can't control the UI layout (my biggest issue with the remote).

      Otherwise - everything else is supported via the SDK - just not natively.

      Lastly, I personally don't need nor want driver management on the brain (although I can understand why people would like that).  I, personally, think NEEO took the correct approach in having drivers run outside of the brain - I think it's a mistake by many HA vendors to run them on the actual box.  I say that because the box (NEEO, Logitech or otherwise) is a limited environment - the storage is limited, the speed is limited, and nothing is expandable.  Running drivers will ALWAYS and EVENTUALLY lead to a slow down on the box and you'll eventually run out of room (logitech has this issue in my household).  Having the drivers run on a separate box is a FANTASTIC decision in my opinion because I can control everything and can upgrade as needed (I run my HA on an intel NUC i7)

      However - I can see why people would want to run on the drivers on the brain (its cheap since you already have it, the setup probably isn't complicated like mine and they want the elusive one thing solves everything box [which will NEVER happen - have too many years of HA experience to know that error).

      As I said - I think you are complaining mostly about native functionality - but do realize the SDK does provide almost everything you ask 

      Reply Like
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 7 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Tim Roberts 

      It is very pleasing to hear that this all works, especially bluetooth with the brain and the sdk. Why is there no complete documentation for the interface to NEEO?

      Could you describe how to use Bluethooth with the NEEO brain? Likewise, I would be very interested in how to learn IR codes to NEEO and how to change icons.

      I agree that NEEO can not control systems like KNX either way and therefore a connection to other systems has to be made. Here you can use the preferred system of choice that controls these devices. For this purpose, it would be absolutely necessary that everything that the NEEO can handle is properly documented. 

      It is ok that other systems control devices and communicate with the NEEO, but it is essential that the menu on NEEO itself is fast. Take a look at the sonos menu, wich is awful slow. As an user i can not change this behaviour, I have to wait for the development team from NEEO to improve these things.

      Reply Like
      • Christian
      • Christian
      • 7 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Fonzo 

      I think you understood him wrong.

      He simply said that NEEO can do shit. If you want to controll anything (that is not your TV/Receiver) just get openHAB.  Then NEEO can trigger the OpenHAB events. 

      Reply Like
    • Niels de Klerk Tim Roberts You're both happy with a product that time-rich tinkerers with  separate always-on computer can use. That wasn't what NEEO was pitched as. If I wanted a dumb remote and to spend hours configuring Home Assistant or OpenHAB I wouldn't have invested. The remote can't even do it's basics right at the moment. It's SO frustrating.

      On a technical note, is the brain really so poorly specified that it can't run some simple (node?) HA code? Is it really less powerful than a raspi?

      Reply Like 1
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 7 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Christian Ok, but it can not be the intention of NEEO that you have to connect existing systems so that you can control anything at all. Sure I can control anything with an existing homeautomation, in my case I use IP-Symcon.

      In my case i control the Nvida Shield (not supported by NEEO) by sending a command to IP-Symcon -> Logitech Hub -> Nvidia Shield. For all the ir codes then can not be learned to NEEO (NEEO -> IP-Symcon -> Logitech Hub -> Device) etc.

      But from a remote that is far more expensive then a simple universal remote or other competitors I would expect that NEEO at least can handle things like control devices via bluetooth or learn any ir code from a device that is not in the database without using another gateway. 

      Regardless of the size of the development team, I would not waste my time doing things that a houseautomation system can do better. Instead, the device should at least support the hardware that is installed in the device itself and with which NEEO is advertised.

      Reply Like 1
    • Alan Collier both Tim Roberts and I indeed invested a LOT of time coding the integration with our beloved HA system, so that others can just install OpenHab on their computer or raspberry pi or buy a Homey then add the integration with just a click and your done. (More or less)  if you want to have a very rich feature set. Customizability, logic and more devece support you can have that right now using any of these solutions without having to know how it all works or spending a lot of time. NEEO will get these fearures to but will obviously take some time. So there is a choice and not a bad one either.

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    • Niels de Klerk Tim Roberts You've clearly invested lots of time, well done and thank you. This isn't about you though. Unfortunately your code can only be used by moderately technical users with a 2nd system to host the SDK and leave it always-on, that's poor. The SDK , itself a great idea, should run on the brain by now.

      I'll ask my primary question again.. How many full-time developers have NEEO got employed?

      I suspect the answer is embrassingly few. It's also a great indicator of the realistic future of this platform, because it's still unstable and missing major features. The community is also clearly tiny as the same 3/4 people reply to every thread, loyally defending their friends at NEEO.

      I'm not a hater, I'm a frustrated investor and I want the truth.

      Reply Like
  • Sorry - on vacation right now so I'm a bit slow in responses and they will be terse.

    Fonzo

    To run bluetooth items - here (at a high level) is what I've done:

    1. Install openHAB on something with a bluetooth transmitter (intel nuc in my case)
    2. Install the NEEO Binding/NEEO Integration on openHAB
    3. Install the bluetooth binding on openHAB
    4. Configure the bluetooth devices on openHAB
    5. Expose those devices to NEEO via the NEEO Integration
    6. Search/add those devices via the NEEO app

    I can then control whatever devices I need

    To specify icons:

    1. For any openHAB device, simply bring it up in the NEEO Integration, hit the advance properties button and specify the icon to use for the device.  When I add the device via NEEO app - the icon is used.
    2. For existing NEEO device, I discover the device using the openHAB NEEO binding, then use the NEEO integration advanced properties to specify the icon, then reimport the device into NEEO via the app - have the new icon.  SIDE NOTE: you can also use this method to assign whatever actions you want to whatever hard keys as well!

    Alan Collier

    I don't know the specs of the brain but would assume it's atleast as powerful as the RPI3.  The problem is - I've maxed out a RPI3 and maxed out the stupid logitech hub as well.  I agree with you that running drivers on the brain is a good idea for a majority of people who have simplier setups.  However, I'm REALLY happy that they allow us to run drivers on our own hardware - allowing me to scale as I need.  

    Reply Like 1
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 7 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Tim Roberts Hello Tim, thank you for your answer. I had hoped somehow because of your statement that it would be possible to use the bluetooth function of NEEO.

      NEEO is advertised at amazon with

      "NEEO is compatible with all major AV products from the last 10 years and integrates with all the cool new devices on the market. It has antennas supporting all major home automation standards such as Bluetooth"

      So I hoped not to use another gateway to do this job for NEEO. Unfortunately it seems that this does not work. So I stay with the control of a Logitech Hub which can be easily connected with an Nvidia shield. It is from my personal point of view a evidence of incapacity if a product like NEEO is advertised with features that are not implemented at all at the moment.

       

      Quote from Amazon:

      "You don’t need to be a techie person to setup NEEO. It’s built for everyone and tested by our kids, parents and grandparents!"

      Sorry but if the only way to control a modern device like an nvidia shield is to use another gateway, with can be paired by bluetooth to the shield, and in addition a homeautomation platform of choice to control a modern device from NEEO, this is far away from not beeing a techie person.

      Therefore, the NEEO development team should first focus there development capacity on all the functions that where promised before implementing new functions.

      Reply Like 1
    • Alex B
    • Walk without rhythm, and you won't attract the worm!
    • Alex_B
    • 6 mths ago
    • 1
    • Reported - view

    For Well over a year now we hear they have Some issues with Nest integration and/or proper Hue integration but it Will arrive “soon”. This is not only annoying but Maybe even the First brick of the wall that Will eventually falls on top of Neeo.

    If a developer team cannot even do stuff that is considered ‘basic’ on all competitors, there is Either a problem with that entire team or the management.

    There are more then enough alternatives Out here with better and more compatible software. Logitech is spot on for years with their Harmony line and new brands come Out Almost monthly.

     

    Don’t get me wrong, I like my Neeo, but software wise it is NOT by any means modern/state of the art.

    so Raphael  start telling people, What are you working on? Whats in the pipeline? And Whats new. You guys have a blog! Use it. 

    Reply Like 1
      • Victor
      • Victor.1
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Alex B Not trying to be harsh, but I was planning to buy Neeo since 2015 or something like this, finally I decided to buy it, because I had a good deal from a local seller (no shipping, no wait time).

      But seriously, I still feel like a beta tester.
      Yesterday my remote became unresposible, and once it was rebooted I saw a terrifying flickering, which gone by itself in a couple of minutes, but now I have a weird feeling it may happen again at any time.

      I have never had anything like this with Logitech, and I do feel that Neeo team had a lot of time to fix it all. 

      So, I guess U.S. government must provide more guarantees to the kickstarter bakers and control project owners, we all know these stories with Ferraries and expensive luxury stuff (not blaming anyone here ofcourse).

      For now Neeo remote is just a toy for me, and I patiently waiting for bluetooth update "in a week or two" (which was promised like a week ago, so it's only a week to go then!) to be able to control my players. Otherwise my "stupid" 5$ remote can do more, than a 350$ Neeo. 
       

      Reply Like
    • Alex B I fully understand your point of view. And I do agree that it’s taking way to long for nest (and other products) to get (fully) supported. On the other side I believe that basic day to day stability should be priority 1. I’m happy to say that the version I’m testing right now is incomparably stable opposed the current available release. I’ll let others be the judge of that (hopefully soon™️) I’m really happy with it.

      regarding drivers and support I see a lot of changes to the SDK. They’re adding features and widgets to the SDK. Now most of you might not use or develop any of the community drivers so it might seem insignificant but I believe that it is important because this also makes it more easy to add and maintain drivers that NEEO builds and come included with the firmware. If I’m correct with this it means that they are investing in long term solutions. That will later help them with more easy and consistent development.

      I still very much agree that nest is just taking to long. I don’t have one so I have no idea if it’s difficult to support or why it’s not supported right now. 

      Just my 2 cents.

      Reply Like
      • Fonzo
      • Fonzo
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Niels de Klerk 

      Before investing in long-term solutions it should be implemented from my personal point of view first of all basics. It makes no sense to connect external professional systems if fundamentals do not work.

      Todos:

      - Adjust color for lamps with color selection.
      - Configure a recipe without having to start the recipe yourself
      - automatic creation of devices and automatic configuration and setup from external systems, this is especially relevant for professional systems, dealers and integrators
      - bluetooth support of devices as advertised
      - improving the speed of menus and loading graphics

      Reply Like
    • Fonzo that’s what I meant, having the features in the SDK makes it easier to implement and maintain drivers for NEEO themselves locally on the brain. Not external professional systems. The brain itself also runs drivers. Hue, LIFX and sonos are examples of that. I might’ve been unclear there.

      also with long term solutions I mean they are not going for the quick win but rather make sure the basics are stable and smooth. 

      Think we might mean more or less the same.

      Reply Like
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